Trub in extract brews & whirlpooling

I came across a thread on here today about whirlpooling your wort after its been cooled to settle trub out and then siphoning the wort from the kettle leaving the trub behind. In the thread I saw the pictures had much more trub than I've ever seen in my extract brews. Is this a difference between all-grain and extract brewing or am I just dumping all my trub into my primary fermentor?

And if I am dumping the trub into my primary, does this have any negative consequences?

If it has few if any consequences I'm not too worried about the extra trub as I'd be more paranoid about letting my wort sit around and stirring it alot and introducing nasties while I stir.

In this regard there is no difference between Extract and All Grain. Whhirlpooling is very effective at moving the trub to the middle. The edges will be almost clear of hop and hot break residue. When the wort is hot don't splash, but don't worry about nasties, get the wort really moving in one direction, pull your spoon out and wait about 15 mins. Drain and cool the wort then worry about nasties once it is cooled. Never cover the wort when it is boiling.

Musthavbeer said:

Never cover the wort when it is boiling.

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Why not? I usually don't, but does this somehow affect the wort? I'd imagine that it would make boilovers more likely but couldn't come up with a negative.

Marc.

Yes it will promote boilovers but more to the point: DMS

Dimethyl Sulfide
Description: Tastes and smells of cooked vegetables/corn/cabbage or shellfish/seafood. Is acceptable in light lagers to a degree.

Cause: Bacterial infection can cause DMS, as well as covering up your brewpot during the boil. DMS is removed from the wort during the boil, so covering it up is obviously going to cause the DMS-laced condensation to fall back into your brewpot.

Remedy: Keep good sanitation procedures, and make sure to keep a rolling, uncovered boil when brewing. Do not cover your brewpot during the boil!

Oxidation / Stale
Description: Carboardy, papery flavor or aroma that is not acceptable in any beer style. Sherry-like is another way to describe an acceptable characteristic in many Barleywines, Old Ales, or Scotch Ales.

Cause: Poor wort handling.

Remedy: Do not introduce oxygen to wort after fermentation and avoid rough handling or splashing of hot wort.

Hope this helps,

Mark

So you whirlpool while the wort is hot and not after it is cooled? (I have a new immersion chiller). I would think you'd do it after it had been cooled to get both hot and cold break material?

And does trub have any negative consequences if left in the primary fermenter to settle out?

The immersion chiller is great. You need to get the wort below 140 in 20 min. or less. Start the chiller going and stir in one direction without splashing. After the wort is at pitching temp stop and let the trub and hot break settle for 10-20 min., then run into the fermenter, aerate and pitch yeast. I’m not so sure about cold break as you need to chill to about 55 and that is only necessary for lagers. A little trub is fine in the fermenter as the yeast can use a little protein. Most of what I'm representing comes from JamilZ

Musthavbeer said:

Yes it will promote boilovers but more to the point: DMS

Dimethyl Sulfide
Description: Tastes and smells of cooked vegetables/corn/cabbage or shellfish/seafood. Is acceptable in light lagers to a degree.

Cause: Bacterial infection can cause DMS, as well as covering up your brewpot during the boil. DMS is removed from the wort during the boil, so covering it up is obviously going to cause the DMS-laced condensation to fall back into your brewpot.

Remedy: Keep good sanitation procedures, and make sure to keep a rolling, uncovered boil when brewing. Do not cover your brewpot during the boil!

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Hmmm... I learn somethin' new every day on this site. Somehow, I've missed this point in the books I've read. I don't completely cover the pot during my boils, but I do leave the lid on half-way to conserve some of the heat. Oddly enough, though, I've never noticed a problem in the final product. What the heck... I suppose the chance isn't worth the quarter's worth of propane I save keeping it partially covered.

Regarding the DMS: For my first few brews I didn't know about this either, and covered my pot so I didn't lose heat. There was no shellfish or cooked corn in the final brews, but as a precaution I keep the lid only half on now. Having a good rolling boil is more important to me than the possibility of DMS.

So in summary we whilpool when wort when cool using spoon, wait 15 minutes, and then use an autosiphon around the edges of the pot to siphon into primary?

gonzoflick said:

So in summary we whilpool when wort when cool using spoon, wait 15 minutes, and then use an autosiphon around the edges of the pot to siphon into primary?

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There are multiple ways to do it, and what is represented above is a fine way of doing it. Before I switched to a CFC I did the following based on some tutelage from the Kaiser:
- Introduced immersion chiller 15 minutes before boil was over
- Killed boil, hooked up immersion chiller and started water. Covered pot as best I could given that the chiller was in there...practically speaking there is no worry about DMS at this stage as it should have been driven off long ago by a good, rigorous, uncovered boil.
- Chilled to desired level of chilling.
- Removed chiller and started whirlpool going.
- Gave whirlpool 20-30 minutes and then siphoned and pitched.

This is what eventually worked for me and got a good mound of trub in the center of the kettle that I could siphon around. You do need to follow good sanitation procedures, however.

Note that now I use a CFC and get most of the cold break in my fermentor, so I hope that's not hurting anything!