yet Another Clarity ferm question
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Yes it does the same, but it does not really deglutenize anything. It just chops of a small part of a big molecule, resulting in not being detectable as gluten by most tests anymore. This does not necessarily mean that this eliminates the effect on the human body, it just makes the tests not able to detect the molecule anymore. Here is a good thread in this forum, explaining it from the more scientific side.
Please read again what I said, I never said that it does not do anything.
I also gave you the location of the thread, it is in this Forum, the sticky thread on top.
Just to be sure,
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=354908
Tigerface
Simply put if your gluten intolerant and not celiac you can use clarity Ferm to reduce or eliminate the side effects of consuming gluten. However if you are celiac do not look to clarity Ferm to make the beer safe for you to consume. Gluten reduced beer is not safe for celiacs as any consumed gluten will slowly destroy your body at the cellular level. Omission beer is not safe for celiacs.
Gluten itself is not the obstacle for celiacs it's what makes up gluten. All gluten produced from every plant whether it's rye or wheat or barley or whatever contain these substances that make up gluten. For ease of medical terminology doctors simply refer to the substance celiacs cannot consume as "gluten".
Now some fancy chemical engineer/scientist found a way to fake the "gluten " testing get methods and we end up with clarity Ferm. The testing methods only look for "gluten" and not the substances that make up gluten. So if the chemical bonds are broken and the substances are no longer chained together to form gluten where did the go? They are still present individually and the gluten tests are useless. They need to revise the testing methods for gluten and not only look for the gluten protein itself but for the substances that make up gluten to.
Clarity Ferm has other uses to aside from making gluten containing home brew tolerable for gluten intolerant people. Check out my other posts for more info.
So in conclusion clarity Ferm is a viable option for people who are gluten intolerant and can safely consume small amounts of gluten with little to no side effects. For people like me that are silent celiacs meaning I can consume gluten with little to no side effects felt clarity Ferm is not safe to use in gluten containing beers because those "substances" are still present in the beer and cellular damage will still occur. The only way to make true gluten free beer is to use ingredients that do not contain any gluten and ingredients that are produced in a true gluten free dedicated facility. Companies that sell products produced from the same process machinery that produces gluten containing products are not gluten free. I don't care how well they "clean" the machinery there will always be cross contamination of gluten to the gluten free products.
DO NOT USE CLARITY FERM IN GLUTEN CONTAINING HOME-BREW FOR CELIACS!!! THIS IS NOT SAFE.
Hope this clarifies some things for you.
Happy home brewing,
Labatts
Simply put if your gluten intolerant and not celiac you can use clarity Ferm to reduce or eliminate the side effects of consuming gluten. However if you are celiac do not look to clarity Ferm to make the beer safe for you to consume. Gluten reduced beer is not safe for celiacs as any consumed gluten will slowly destroy your body at the cellular level. Omission beer is not safe for celiacs.
Gluten itself is not the obstacle for celiacs it's what makes up gluten. All gluten produced from every plant whether it's rye or wheat or barley or whatever contain these substances that make up gluten. For ease of medical terminology doctors simply refer to the substance celiacs cannot consume as "gluten".
Now some fancy chemical engineer/scientist found a way to fake the "gluten " testing get methods and we end up with clarity Ferm. The testing methods only look for "gluten" and not the substances that make up gluten. So if the chemical bonds are broken and the substances are no longer chained together to form gluten where did the go? They are still present individually and the gluten tests are useless. They need to revise the testing methods for gluten and not only look for the gluten protein itself but for the substances that make up gluten to.
Clarity Ferm has other uses to aside from making gluten containing home brew tolerable for gluten intolerant people. Check out my other posts for more info.
So in conclusion clarity Ferm is a viable option for people who are gluten intolerant and can safely consume small amounts of gluten with little to no side effects. For people like me that are silent celiacs meaning I can consume gluten with little to no side effects felt clarity Ferm is not safe to use in gluten containing beers because those "substances" are still present in the beer and cellular damage will still occur. The only way to make true gluten free beer is to use ingredients that do not contain any gluten and ingredients that are produced in a true gluten free dedicated facility. Companies that sell products produced from the same process machinery that produces gluten containing products are not gluten free. I don't care how well they "clean" the machinery there will always be cross contamination of gluten to the gluten free products.
DO NOT USE CLARITY FERM IN GLUTEN CONTAINING HOME-BREW FOR CELIACS!!! THIS IS NOT SAFE.
Hope this clarifies some things for you.
Happy home brewing,
Labatts
Two more clarity-ferm questions:
Numero uno: I believe that clarity ferm reduces final gravity below what it would otherwise be. This is based on my experience and also a youtube video where a guy split a batch adding clarity ferm to one half. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86EfzU88lV8[/ame]
That half was more clear and had a final lower gravity. If this is the case, then aren't the hydrometer readings translated into the abv scale ;providing false readings and inflating the final abv numbers? The use of this enzyme is not creating a higher alcohol content. Not a huge deal for me but a discussion point none the less.
Second, I recently added clarity ferm to my fermentor after two weeks. Two days following the addition, the beer was remarkably more clear - in fact, the clearest I have ever brewed. There certainly could be other factors, but, I am wondering if perhaps the optimal time to add clarity ferm is after fermentation has settled down. Certainly clearer beer means the product is working more effectively. Maybe the instructions say add when you pitch the yeast just for ease of use as maybe white labs feels people will forget or not bother later on in the process.
I am interested in feed back on both of the above discussion items.
Thanks!
Numero uno: I believe that clarity ferm reduces final gravity below what it would otherwise be. This is based on my experience and also a youtube video where a guy split a batch adding clarity ferm to one half. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86EfzU88lV8[/ame]
That half was more clear and had a final lower gravity. If this is the case, then aren't the hydrometer readings translated into the abv scale ;providing false readings and inflating the final abv numbers? The use of this enzyme is not creating a higher alcohol content. Not a huge deal for me but a discussion point none the less.
Second, I recently added clarity ferm to my fermentor after two weeks. Two days following the addition, the beer was remarkably more clear - in fact, the clearest I have ever brewed. There certainly could be other factors, but, I am wondering if perhaps the optimal time to add clarity ferm is after fermentation has settled down. Certainly clearer beer means the product is working more effectively. Maybe the instructions say add when you pitch the yeast just for ease of use as maybe white labs feels people will forget or not bother later on in the process.
I am interested in feed back on both of the above discussion items.
Thanks!
BrewGF,
Very valid point. But the first question I have is. What are you using to measure gravity at start, middle and at finish? Also what was your OG and what was gravity when you added clarity Ferm and what was FG? I only use a hydrometer from start to finish at the different parts of the brewing process when using clarity Ferm. Otherwise I found myself going crazy chasing number with a refractometer at the beginning and a hydrometer after alcohol is present, When in the end it doesn't make a lick of difference. The only numbers I concern myself with are OG, MG (mid gravity when to start secondary), DHG (dry hop gravity) and FG of a single batch. These are the only points I measure to insure I'm repeating the process exactly.
When using the enzyme there is more going on other than protein refinement of the beer which stabilizes the beer and preventing dreaded chill haze. I'm not going into to further specifics because they do not make a bit of difference for home-brew and less than .2% ABV. It will only add to confusion.
The reason for the addition of the enzyme at beginning of fermentation is enzymes have different effects on the human body. There is some question as to the potency of clarity Ferm not only on the beer but the effects on us if added later after fermentation has completed. Our digestive systems are full of thousands of different types of bacterias and enzymes found naturally in our bodies, clarity Ferm is not one of them. Now before starting a major scare or some kind if panic, there is nothing wrong using clarity Ferm as directed from what science has provided us. It's like anything else, always use as directed and in the intent in which it was designed. With that being said you may not have any issues using clarity Ferm in an unintended manor but others may especially people with digestive diseases or other other immune diseases. So feel free to experiment but only at your own educated risk.
For me and people around me that have intestinal disease we have not had any ill effects from beer containing clarity Ferm used during primary fermentation. Not saying anyone will have an issue using it later after fermentation has stopped I just don't know. There are enzymes being used in garbage land fills to break down plastics and vinyl at an extreme rate but that doesn't mean I'm going to consume them. So with everything we put in our bodies it's always at your own risk. And for me with all of my dietary restrictions clarity Ferm is one I feel safe consuming as the risks far out way the side effects.
Which brings me to my next point, quantity. I believe far less clarity Ferm can be used than as directed however I'm still working on conclusions there. I've been currently testing at half the recommended dosage but will not know for some time as to the results. Enzymes can be powerful things and my question is how much is really needed? I have a feeling it will be a fraction of what is recommended, time will tell. Less is always best.
Back to the World Series, it's a heck of a game tonight.
Labatts
Very valid point. But the first question I have is. What are you using to measure gravity at start, middle and at finish? Also what was your OG and what was gravity when you added clarity Ferm and what was FG? I only use a hydrometer from start to finish at the different parts of the brewing process when using clarity Ferm. Otherwise I found myself going crazy chasing number with a refractometer at the beginning and a hydrometer after alcohol is present, When in the end it doesn't make a lick of difference. The only numbers I concern myself with are OG, MG (mid gravity when to start secondary), DHG (dry hop gravity) and FG of a single batch. These are the only points I measure to insure I'm repeating the process exactly.
When using the enzyme there is more going on other than protein refinement of the beer which stabilizes the beer and preventing dreaded chill haze. I'm not going into to further specifics because they do not make a bit of difference for home-brew and less than .2% ABV. It will only add to confusion.
The reason for the addition of the enzyme at beginning of fermentation is enzymes have different effects on the human body. There is some question as to the potency of clarity Ferm not only on the beer but the effects on us if added later after fermentation has completed. Our digestive systems are full of thousands of different types of bacterias and enzymes found naturally in our bodies, clarity Ferm is not one of them. Now before starting a major scare or some kind if panic, there is nothing wrong using clarity Ferm as directed from what science has provided us. It's like anything else, always use as directed and in the intent in which it was designed. With that being said you may not have any issues using clarity Ferm in an unintended manor but others may especially people with digestive diseases or other other immune diseases. So feel free to experiment but only at your own educated risk.
For me and people around me that have intestinal disease we have not had any ill effects from beer containing clarity Ferm used during primary fermentation. Not saying anyone will have an issue using it later after fermentation has stopped I just don't know. There are enzymes being used in garbage land fills to break down plastics and vinyl at an extreme rate but that doesn't mean I'm going to consume them. So with everything we put in our bodies it's always at your own risk. And for me with all of my dietary restrictions clarity Ferm is one I feel safe consuming as the risks far out way the side effects.
Which brings me to my next point, quantity. I believe far less clarity Ferm can be used than as directed however I'm still working on conclusions there. I've been currently testing at half the recommended dosage but will not know for some time as to the results. Enzymes can be powerful things and my question is how much is really needed? I have a feeling it will be a fraction of what is recommended, time will tell. Less is always best.
Back to the World Series, it's a heck of a game tonight.
Labatts
Yo, Labatts - If less Clarity Ferm is effective, at say half the dose, would it be ok to reseal the vial, refrigerate, and use the remaining half dose in a later brew in 4-5 weeks or more?
Bregar,
Yes you can use some of the vial and reseal for another day as long as your hands are sanitized when opening the clarity Ferm vial. So say you only make small batches 2.5 gallons. You can use half the vial, reseal and use the remainder for future batch as long as your within the expiration date marked on the packaging. I write the date in the vial because it's only printed on the cardboard package which ends up In the garbage. Measure the clarity Ferm in the vial and make the half way point with a felt tip pen. I have never gone more than a month once opened so I cannot say beyond that but don't think there will be an issue. Also there is no need to refrigerate, just keep it sealed and out of direct light. Keep In a drawer or somewhere clean and safe. Always sanitize the vial and hands before adding the remainder to your wort.
I'm currently using half of the vial for 5 gallons but it will be a while before I have results. 2 months or so.
Hope this answers your question.
Labatts
Yes you can use some of the vial and reseal for another day as long as your hands are sanitized when opening the clarity Ferm vial. So say you only make small batches 2.5 gallons. You can use half the vial, reseal and use the remainder for future batch as long as your within the expiration date marked on the packaging. I write the date in the vial because it's only printed on the cardboard package which ends up In the garbage. Measure the clarity Ferm in the vial and make the half way point with a felt tip pen. I have never gone more than a month once opened so I cannot say beyond that but don't think there will be an issue. Also there is no need to refrigerate, just keep it sealed and out of direct light. Keep In a drawer or somewhere clean and safe. Always sanitize the vial and hands before adding the remainder to your wort.
I'm currently using half of the vial for 5 gallons but it will be a while before I have results. 2 months or so.
Hope this answers your question.
Labatts
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
My background is a biologist who's actually done these kinds of tests (although testing for things other than gluten), researched quite a bit on gluten testing and given informal advice to breweries in the UK about gluten-free beer.
Let's have some perspective here - beer and chocolate have thousands of chemicals not found in our bodies, we still consume them. ClarityFerm is effectively doing the same job as our digestive enzymes, and it's purified from a fungus that is widely present in the environment, you will have breathed it in and eaten it on fruit. On a scale of things to worry about, ClarityFerm is probably a 2 out of 10 - things like beans, potatoes and celery are significantly more dangerous, like 6-8 out of 10.
Simply not true, you're 5-10 years out of date, at least for the current state of the art in the UK. The old sandwich test that only "saw" whole gluten molecules was only in use for a fairly short time and is not used any more in the UK AFAIAA. I've seen the test certificates from an independent lab, enzyme-treated beer had <10ppm gluten when tested with the "new" competitive ELISA that "sees" fragments of gluten as well as the whole molecule. The competitive ELISA is cheaper and quicker, and is specified in international standards, so there's no reason for anyone to use the test that only tests for intact gluten.
And the test is not an indirect one, it is testing directly for the main antigens that cause problems. So if the test comes up clean, that represents a real reduction in risk. That's not to say it's 100% - coelic disease covers a complex of different reactions, many of which are not well characterised. So people with genuine medical reactions to "gluten" should always be wary of labels, and experiment to see what they're OK with and what not. We're all unique as individuals.
At the same time coeliac disease is pretty rare. In the UK for every coeliac there are 10 people trying to live a gluten-free life for more general health reasons. <20ppm beer is aimed at those kinds of people. And to be honest, you don't even need enzymes for that. A number of breweries have tested lagers and golden ales brewed "normally" without trying to be gluten-free and found that they were under 20ppm gluten. But they've chosen not to go through the cost and hassle of getting formally certified, not least because of the prevalance of draught here - a brewery can only guarantee GF-ness as far as delivery, it's hard for them to control for eg gluten pick-up from dirty lines.
So the non-coeliac GFers have more options than they think - obviously malt-led beers like stouts have more gluten, but if a golden ale or lager is clear then it may well have <20ppm gluten or not much more. Clearly genuine coeliacs can't take that risk, but it does mean there's more options for other GFers than they might think.
Let's have some perspective here - beer and chocolate have thousands of chemicals not found in our bodies, we still consume them. ClarityFerm is effectively doing the same job as our digestive enzymes, and it's purified from a fungus that is widely present in the environment, you will have breathed it in and eaten it on fruit. On a scale of things to worry about, ClarityFerm is probably a 2 out of 10 - things like beans, potatoes and celery are significantly more dangerous, like 6-8 out of 10.
Simply not true, you're 5-10 years out of date, at least for the current state of the art in the UK. The old sandwich test that only "saw" whole gluten molecules was only in use for a fairly short time and is not used any more in the UK AFAIAA. I've seen the test certificates from an independent lab, enzyme-treated beer had <10ppm gluten when tested with the "new" competitive ELISA that "sees" fragments of gluten as well as the whole molecule. The competitive ELISA is cheaper and quicker, and is specified in international standards, so there's no reason for anyone to use the test that only tests for intact gluten.
And the test is not an indirect one, it is testing directly for the main antigens that cause problems. So if the test comes up clean, that represents a real reduction in risk. That's not to say it's 100% - coelic disease covers a complex of different reactions, many of which are not well characterised. So people with genuine medical reactions to "gluten" should always be wary of labels, and experiment to see what they're OK with and what not. We're all unique as individuals.
At the same time coeliac disease is pretty rare. In the UK for every coeliac there are 10 people trying to live a gluten-free life for more general health reasons. <20ppm beer is aimed at those kinds of people. And to be honest, you don't even need enzymes for that. A number of breweries have tested lagers and golden ales brewed "normally" without trying to be gluten-free and found that they were under 20ppm gluten. But they've chosen not to go through the cost and hassle of getting formally certified, not least because of the prevalance of draught here - a brewery can only guarantee GF-ness as far as delivery, it's hard for them to control for eg gluten pick-up from dirty lines.
So the non-coeliac GFers have more options than they think - obviously malt-led beers like stouts have more gluten, but if a golden ale or lager is clear then it may well have <20ppm gluten or not much more. Clearly genuine coeliacs can't take that risk, but it does mean there's more options for other GFers than they might think.
I only measure my gravity with a hydrometer after cooling the wort and then maybe twice before bottling sometimes only once if the beer has been in the fermenter three weeks.
As far as when to add the clarity ferm you make some good points and I will just stick with white labs instructions.
As far as when to add the clarity ferm you make some good points and I will just stick with white labs instructions.
Thank you, Labatts, for your informative reply concerning the OK use/reuse of partial vials of Clarity Ferm, in partial batches, given proper sanitizing.
I use Clarity Ferm to make gluten reduced beer from traditional brewing grains.
Northern_Brewer
I am familiar with the ELSA test and our standard for gluten free here In Zthe USA is 20ppm as well. So speaking to people with celiac disease however little 20ppm is, it's still to much for people with celiac. It must be 0ppm. In my case I have Addison's disease, celiac, diabetes and hypothyroid, (extremely rare disease known as Schmitts disease) if I consume any gluten above 0ppm my body cannot metabolize steroids (hydrocortisone and fludrocortisone) that keep me alive because the cilia in the small intestine lay down no longer able to metabolize and grab on to nutrients and more important the steroids essential to sustain life.
As I'm sure your aware the is some question to the accuracy and the legitimacy of the ELSA test. In my case I'm not putting my life on the line for any test. It's good for reference but as a celiac I wouldn't trust it one bit. Now if I was gluten intolerant and your looking for a ppm range the ELSA test would be a legitimate reference test to go by. Otherwise celiacs should live by the rule of zero gluten and not the standard of 20 ppm. That is a gov't standard that should not be followed for celiacs.
Your dead on that people are starting to "diet" gluten free. In my opinion most people don't understand why and think it some new weight lose or diet craze, at least here in the USA. Gluten is a protein that doesn't need to be avoided to loss weight or eat heathy, the carbs they consume come from gluten containing foods like bread. So eliminate the carbs/bread and not the gluten. JMO.
I wish doctors would adopt the simple finger prick indicator test for gluten sensitivity/celiac because there are a lot of people that do not know they are celiac or have a gluten sensitivity. Then if the indicator test comes back positive, further testing and a biopsy could be scheduled. This test should be done once per year on everyone, at time of a physical would be a good standard. The indicator test is inexpensive and quick.
Great to hear back from a biologist and someone who has a background. If it's ok I'd like to PM you and pick your brain further. I have questions that I cannot answer and maybe you can help out?
Labatts.
I am familiar with the ELSA test and our standard for gluten free here In Zthe USA is 20ppm as well. So speaking to people with celiac disease however little 20ppm is, it's still to much for people with celiac. It must be 0ppm. In my case I have Addison's disease, celiac, diabetes and hypothyroid, (extremely rare disease known as Schmitts disease) if I consume any gluten above 0ppm my body cannot metabolize steroids (hydrocortisone and fludrocortisone) that keep me alive because the cilia in the small intestine lay down no longer able to metabolize and grab on to nutrients and more important the steroids essential to sustain life.
As I'm sure your aware the is some question to the accuracy and the legitimacy of the ELSA test. In my case I'm not putting my life on the line for any test. It's good for reference but as a celiac I wouldn't trust it one bit. Now if I was gluten intolerant and your looking for a ppm range the ELSA test would be a legitimate reference test to go by. Otherwise celiacs should live by the rule of zero gluten and not the standard of 20 ppm. That is a gov't standard that should not be followed for celiacs.
Your dead on that people are starting to "diet" gluten free. In my opinion most people don't understand why and think it some new weight lose or diet craze, at least here in the USA. Gluten is a protein that doesn't need to be avoided to loss weight or eat heathy, the carbs they consume come from gluten containing foods like bread. So eliminate the carbs/bread and not the gluten. JMO.
I wish doctors would adopt the simple finger prick indicator test for gluten sensitivity/celiac because there are a lot of people that do not know they are celiac or have a gluten sensitivity. Then if the indicator test comes back positive, further testing and a biopsy could be scheduled. This test should be done once per year on everyone, at time of a physical would be a good standard. The indicator test is inexpensive and quick.
Great to hear back from a biologist and someone who has a background. If it's ok I'd like to PM you and pick your brain further. I have questions that I cannot answer and maybe you can help out?
Labatts.
I am skeptical of it reducing the final gravity over a non-clarity-ferm beer by an amount detectable with a standard homebrewers hydrometer (.002 graduation marks). Proteins are in the ppm (million) range.
I am guessing this is a function of gluten concentration and efficacy of the enzyme. Do you have any information on the efficacy of the specific enzyme used? My guess is they are slightly over-providing you the required amount of enzyme in a fresh vial. It is also obviously related to OG (and how much of that came from malt as opposed to adjuncts like corn, rice, sugars, etc). It also says you can add to "5 - 7 gallons".
You can probably add a fresh vial to 7 gallons of 100% malt beer with an OG of 1.055, somewhere around there. You can also add a half a vial to two separate 5-gallon batches of 100% malt beer that is 1.040, because if I did the math right those two would contain the same amount of gluten (all other variables aside ...). Or, one of those batches can be an oatmeal stout that is 1.050 with 20% of the grist being oats. Or a 1.060 Belgian strong that used 2 pounds of corn sugar. All of these worts have the same gluten concentration / Clarity ferm dosage. My guess is that even on its expiration date, it is 50% effective, and you can probably add an "old" vial to 5 gallons of 1.040 wort and be fine.
Regarding consumption, in the end, all of it should floculate out anyway, and assuming you are careful with racking, and the beer in your glass is brilliantly clear, I wouldnt be worried at all that you are consuming any of the actual enzyme.
Also note, the 10mL vial sold to homebrewers is actually a diluted version of industry-strength Clarify Ferm, which itself is a diluted version of Brewers Clarex.
