Wanted: Mash pH Measurements

[dmr]

Short story: I am requesting that actual mash pH measurements (and relevant ancillary information) be posted in this thread.

Motivation: A number of recent threads on this forum have been discussing the relative merits of various programs that predict mash pH. However, in order to assess and develop such programs, actual data is required. So far, such data appears to markedly absent. Hence this thread. I hope in the long run this thread will be a useful repository of data for anyone interested in this subject.

What's needed: The following is needed for such data to be useful.

1. Grain bill [specific grains mashed and amount of each grain (in lbs), ideal if grain color (Lovibond) is also included)]
2. Amount of mash strike water (in gallons)
3. Ionic content of source water [Na, Ca, Mg, SO_4, Cl, Nitrate (if available) and alkalinity (as calcium carbonate or simply HCO_3 concentration), all in ppm (= mg/L)]
4. Salts added [CaCl, CaSO_4, MgSO_4, NaCl, NaHCO_3, and/or Ca(OH)_2, in grams]
5. Acids added [%'age and amount (in mL)]
6. Mash pH [when taken (from beginning of mash) and temperature of liquid when measured are helpful]


I'll get the ball rolling. Here are data from a recent beer of a fellow homebrewer:

5.0 Lbs Weyermann Pale Wheat
4.7 Lbs Briess American Brewer's Two-Row
0.85 Lbs Goldswaen Red (15L-23L caramel malt)
4 gallons distilled water
4 grams CaCl2
4 grams CaSO4
3.8 ml lactic acid (88%)
Mash pH 5.23 @ ~ 30 minutes

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

Wouldn't you also need a lot code?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Hi @dmr, I have a few I can post for you right now. I use 12 gallons of treated RO strike water for each recipe as they're all 10-gallon batches. A mash thickness of 2.10-2.20 qt/lb is typical for all of my 10-gallon batches. I have been recording actual brewday mash pH readings for several years and will post more as I get them organized. Thank you for starting this thread.

Kolsch
20 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 1.8L]
1 lb. - Vienna [Briess - 3.5L]
2g - calc. chlor., 3g - Epsom salt, 11ml lactic acid [88%]
5.12 pH mash sample taken 20 minutes in at 77F

Cali' Common
10.5 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 1.8L]
10.5 lbs. - Pale 2 Row [Briess - 2L]
7g - gypsum, 1g - calc. chlor., 1g - Epsom salt, 5ml lactic acid
5.17 pH mash sample taken 20 minutes in at 76F

Brown IPA
16 lbs. - Pale 2 Row [Briess - 2L]
3 lbs. - Victory Malt [25L]
2 lbs. - Brown Malt [UK - 65L]
1 lb. - Crystal 60L [Briess - 60L]
1 lb. - Crystal 90L [Briess - 90L]
1g - gypsum, 6g - calc. chlor., 7g - baking soda
5.80 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 76F

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Wouldn't you also need a lot code?

We're not looking for code in this thread, only grain bills, and mash information. What we are hoping to collect in this thread is empirical data taken from actual brewday observations. The data collected will then be evaluated by mash predication formulas that are currently under development.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Supposedly with Weyermann lot codes you can trace the malts DIpH.

 

[Big Monk]

Supposedly with Weyermann lot codes you can trace the malts DIpH.

Not supposedly. Definitely.

 

[Big Monk]

We're not looking for code in this thread, only grain bills, and mash information. What we are hoping to collect in this thread is empirical data taken from actual brewday observations. The data collected will then be evaluated by mash predication formulas that are currently under development.

He’s asking about lot analysis/malt analysis numbers.

I’d think people would need to post grain color here as well.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I’d think people would need to post grain color here as well.

Great point, I've added malt color to my post.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Not supposedly. Definitely.

Are they traced online, and if so, then how?

 

[Big Monk]

Are they traced online, and if so, then how?

You pull the MA # off the bag and Weyermann keeps a database on thier website. You punch in the code and it gives you the MA.

 

[thehaze]

Hoppy Pilsner
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Pilsner 1.6L + 6.6 lb Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner 1.8L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.9 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5.8 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

India Schwarzbier
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Thomas Fawcett Roasted Rye 200L + 1.1 lb BestMalz Black Malt 435L
2. 5.5 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. NO Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added ( NO baking soda either )
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

Vienna Lager
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Castle Biscuit Malt 19L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.8 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 20' | 19C / 66F

British Golden Ale
1. 11 lb Simpsons Maris Otter 3L + 2.2 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.4 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 15' | 19C / 66F

Belgian Blond
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 4.4 lb Weyermann Wheat 2L + 2.2 Simpsons Malted Oats 2L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.5 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 6.6 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at 15' | 19C / 66F

 

[Big Monk]

Hoppy Pilsner
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Pilsner + 6.6 lb Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.9 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5.8 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

India Schwarzbier
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna + 1.1 lb Thomas Fawcett Roasted Rye + 1.1 lb BestMalz Black Malt
2. 5.5 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. NO Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added ( NO baking soda either )
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

Vienna Lager
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna + 1.1 lb Castle Biscuit Malt
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.8 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 20' | 19C / 66F

British Golden Ale
1. 11 lb Simpsons Maris Otter + 2.2 lb Weyermann Vienna
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.4 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 15' | 19C / 66F

Belgian Blond
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Vienna + 4.4 lb Weyermann Wheat + 2.2 Simpsons Malted Oats
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.5 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 6.6 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at 15' | 19C / 66F

I would edit those to include grain color.

 

[thehaze]

I've edited my reply and added grain colour.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You pull the MA # off the bag and Weyermann keeps a database on thier website. You punch in the code and it gives you the MA.

Would you provide the web address for the database please.

 

[Big Monk]

Would you provide the web address for the database please.

https://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Scan_Tutorial_english2.pdf

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

https://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Scan_Tutorial_english2.pdf

Thank you kindly!!!

 

[MT_Keg]

pH Measuring Equipment - Apera Instruments PH60 (stored in 3M KCl, calibrated each brew day)

In addition, I included the software used to determine the additions and the targeted pH.

Note: Depending on the software used the calcium chloride measurement will vary between mass (Bru’n Water) and volume (MME). The calcium chloride was added via a solution with a specific gravity of 1.072.

Czech Pilsner (Mash Volume – 9.75 gal, Distilled Water) [Bru’n Water, Target pH: 5.3]
19 lbs. - German Pilsner [2L]
0.5 lbs. - Carahell [Weyermann - 10L]
99 g calc. chlor. (SG = 1.072), 2 mL - 88% Lactic Acid
5.48 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 65F
5.53 pH mash sample taken 60 minutes in at 68.4F

ZAC IIPA (Mash Volume – 2.3 gal, Distilled Water) [MME 5.10, Target pH: 5.3]
6.9 lbs. - 2 Row [Briess Brewers Malt - 2L]
0.23 lbs. - Crystal 40L [Briess - 40L]
0.23 lbs. - White Wheat Malt [Rahr - 3L]
2.3 g - gypsum, 7.5 mL - calc. chlor. (SG = 1.072), 1 mL - 88% Lactic Acid
5.02 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 69.2F
5.14 pH mash sample taken 60 minutes in at 68.5F


Kolsch Style (Mash Volume – 10.8 gal, Distilled Water) [MME 5.10, Target pH: 5.35]
20.6 lbs. - 2 Row [Briess Brewers Malt - 2L]
1 lbs. – Vienna Malt [4L]
101 mL - calc. chlor. (SG = 10.72), 2 mL - 88% Lactic Acid
5.2 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 71.2F

 

[dmr]

Hi @dmr, I have a few I can post for you right now. I use 12 gallons of treated RO strike water for each recipe as they're all 10-gallon batches. I have been recording actual brewday mash pH readings for several years and will post more as I get them organized. Thank you for starting this thread.

Kolsch
20 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 1.8L]
1 lb. - Vienna [Briess - 3.5L]
2g - calc. chlor., 3g - Epsom salt, 11ml lactic acid [88%]
5.12 pH mash sample taken 20 minutes in at 77F

Cali' Common
10.5 lbs. - Pilsner [Avangard - 1.8L]
10.5 lbs. - Pale 2 Row [Briess - 2L]
7g - gypsum, 1g - calc. chlor., 1g - Epsom salt, 5ml lactic acid
5.17 pH mash sample taken 20 minutes in at 76F

Brown IPA
16 lbs. - Pale 2 Row [Briess - 2L]
3 lbs. - Victory Malt [25L]
2 lbs. - Brown Malt [UK - 65L]
1 lb. - Crystal 60L [Briess - 60L]
1 lb. - Crystal 90L [Briess - 90L]
1g - gypsum, 6g - calc. chlor., 7g - baking soda
5.80 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 76F

Thanks for the data! I look forward to data from your earlier batches.

Hoppy Pilsner
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Pilsner 1.6L + 6.6 lb Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner 1.8L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.9 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5.8 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

India Schwarzbier
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Thomas Fawcett Roasted Rye 200L + 1.1 lb BestMalz Black Malt 435L
2. 5.5 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. NO Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added ( NO baking soda either )
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

Vienna Lager
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Castle Biscuit Malt 19L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.8 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 20' | 19C / 66F

British Golden Ale
1. 11 lb Simpsons Maris Otter 3L + 2.2 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.4 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 15' | 19C / 66F

Belgian Blond
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 4.4 lb Weyermann Wheat 2L + 2.2 Simpsons Malted Oats 2L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.5 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 6.6 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at 15' | 19C / 66F

Thanks for the data! If you know of any other brewers with similar data, it would be great if you could encourage them to add to this thread. Thanks, again!

pH Measuring Equipment - Apera Instruments PH60 (stored in 3M KCl, calibrated each brew day)

In addition, I included the software used to determine the additions and the targeted pH.

Note: Depending on the software used the calcium chloride measurement will vary between mass (Bru’n Water) and volume (MME). The calcium chloride was added via a solution with a specific gravity of 1.072.

Czech Pilsner (Mash Volume – 9.75 gal, Distilled Water) [Bru’n Water, Target pH: 5.3]
19 lbs. - German Pilsner [2L]
0.5 lbs. - Carahell [Weyermann - 10L]
99 g calc. chlor. (SG = 1.072), 2 mL - 88% Lactic Acid
5.48 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 65F
5.53 pH mash sample taken 60 minutes in at 68.4F

ZAC IIPA (Mash Volume – 2.3 gal, Distilled Water) [MME 5.10, Target pH: 5.3]
6.9 lbs. - 2 Row [Briess Brewers Malt - 2L]
0.23 lbs. - Crystal 40L [Briess - 40L]
0.23 lbs. - White Wheat Malt [Rahr - 3L]
2.3 g - gypsum, 7.5 mL - calc. chlor. (SG = 1.072), 1 mL - 88% Lactic Acid
5.02 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 69.2F
5.14 pH mash sample taken 60 minutes in at 68.5F


Kolsch Style (Mash Volume – 10.8 gal, Distilled Water) [MME 5.10, Target pH: 5.35]
20.6 lbs. - 2 Row [Briess Brewers Malt - 2L]
1 lbs. – Vienna Malt [4L]
101 mL - calc. chlor. (SG = 10.72), 2 mL - 88% Lactic Acid
5.2 pH mash sample taken 30 minutes in at 71.2F

Also, thanks for the data! Similarly, if you know of any other brewers with similar data, it would be great if you could encourage them to add to this thread. Thanks, again!

 

[dmr]

Hoppy Pilsner
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Pilsner 1.6L + 6.6 lb Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner 1.8L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.9 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5.8 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

India Schwarzbier
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Thomas Fawcett Roasted Rye 200L + 1.1 lb BestMalz Black Malt 435L
2. 5.5 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. NO Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added ( NO baking soda either )
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

Vienna Lager
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Castle Biscuit Malt 19L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.8 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 20' | 19C / 66F

British Golden Ale
1. 11 lb Simpsons Maris Otter 3L + 2.2 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.4 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 15' | 19C / 66F

Belgian Blond
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 4.4 lb Weyermann Wheat 2L + 2.2 Simpsons Malted Oats 2L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.5 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 6.6 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at 15' | 19C / 66F

I do have a question. In several of these beers you added acid at various times during the mash. For these beers, are the pH measurement taken after all of the acid was added? Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

3. Ionic content of source water [Na, Ca, Mg, SO_4, Cl, Nitrate (if available) and alkalinity (as calcium carbonate or simply HCO_3 concentration), all in ppm (= mg/L)]

In order to determine the effects on water on mash pH we need alkalinity in mEq/L which we get from alkalinity in ppm as CaCO3 or from bicarbonate if we know that the bicarbonate is 61 times the alkalinity in mEq/L. But if a reporter gives you bicarbonate number from his Ward Labs report we cannot determine alkalinity unless we also have pH or carbonate as well. Carbonate is often simply < 1 and Ward Labs is still not computing bicarbonate correctly AFAIK. I see confusion arising here. It would be much better if you asked for alkalinity as CaCO3.

 

[thehaze]

I do have a question. In several of these beers you added acid at various times during the mash. For these beers, are the pH measurement taken after all of the acid was added? Cheers!

For each beer, I add ( to the mash water before reaching mash-in temperature ) all salts and whatever qty of acid Bru'nWater tells me to add to get the pH in range. I mash in, start the mash, which in my case is a continous recirculation - Grainfather Connect. After 15 minutes, I take a sample of the wort. I rapidly cool it down in a bowl of cold water ( I have well water ) with ice cubes. I stir and use a thermometer to check when the wort has reached somewhere around 66-68F. I then take a pH reading. If content with the pH, I do nothing. If too high, I add more acid to the on-going mash, wait a few minutes and then take a new sample. I also treat my sparge water, to get it in the 5.4-5.5 range. I do check pH after the mash, pre-boil ( with the sparge water added ) and post-boil.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I prepare my RO water the night before brewday. On brewday, before heating the strike water I add in salts, minerals, and acid as predicted by ezRecipe. Taking a pH reading near 77F either at 20 or 30 minutes into the mash. Going forward I plan to take all mash pH readings at 30 minutes into the mash.

I use untreated RO water for sparging. And record the mash pH readings whether they are as predicted or not. I don't make mash pH adjustments until brewing the same recipe again.

 

[mabrungard]

I urge caution when using pH data since mash pH varies significantly during the early mashing period. In virtually all the 100 plus mashing trials that I’ve recently performed, pH at the 15 minute mark is up to 0.4 units lower than at the 45 minute mark. This variation is higher in thin mashes and lower in thick mashes. Therefore, it is critical to report the time of measurement and the mash thickness.

In my opinion, pH shouldn’t be relied on until at least 30 minutes have elapsed in the mash. I find that mash pH becomes relatively constant after about 45 minutes of mashing. Brewers that measure pH early in the mash and adjusting based on that measurement are kidding themselves. The ONLY thing that a brewer can get out of an early measurement is a check that the pH is reading LOWER than their targeted pH. As long as that early measurement is a few tenths low of their target, they should be on track.

With that pH response now established, I now recommend that brewers concern themselves with wort pH after the 45 minute mark since that reflects what will be going into the kettle and the subsequent beer character. While that lower early mash pH influences enzyme performance, the final wort pH in the kettle is more important.

This brings up a basic error that exists in the ASBC grain pH measurement procedure. If I read the procedure correctly, it states to measure pH at the 25 minute mark. My experimental results indicate that wort pH has not stabilized enough at that point. The steady state pH result for a DI test will be slightly higher than measured with their procedure.

 

[Big Monk]

I urge caution when using pH data since mash pH varies significantly during the early mashing period. In virtually all the 100 plus mashing trials that I’ve recently performed, pH at the 15 minute mark is up to 0.4 units lower than at the 45 minute mark. This variation is higher in thin mashes and lower in thick mashes. Therefore, it is critical to report the time of measurement and the mash thickness.

In my opinion, pH shouldn’t be relied on until at least 30 minutes have elapsed in the mash. I find that mash pH becomes relatively constant after about 45 minutes of mashing. Brewers that measure pH early in the mash and adjusting based on that measurement are kidding themselves. The ONLY thing that a brewer can get out of an early measurement is a check that the pH is reading LOWER than their targeted pH. As long as that early measurement is a few tenths low of their target, they should be on track.

With that pH response now established, I now recommend that brewers concern themselves with wort pH after the 45 minute mark since that reflects what will be going into the kettle and the subsequent beer character. While that lower early mash pH influences enzyme performance, the final wort pH in the kettle is more important.

This brings up a basic error that exists in the ASBC grain pH measurement procedure. If I read the procedure correctly, it states to measure pH at the 25 minute mark. My experimental results indicate that wort pH has not stabilized enough at that point. The steady state pH result for a DI test will be slightly higher than measured with their procedure.

Given the recent talk about Mash pH and how it changes throughout the mash, I checked in my my pal The Beerery, who now has a ton of batches in the books with his new system, including inline pH measurement and dedicated recorders giving real time pH across the whole mashing period.

Given his experience, he has stated that pH locks in early on and does not change throughout the entire mash. Granted, he tends to stick with a constant water to grain ratio, but there has to be a mechanism that explains your observations. I personally have never seen a change in pH across the mash after 30 minutes, so the fact that so many report this rising pH phenomenon points to something being the driver for it.

Not that I am trying to discredit your trials, Martin. Far from it. I'm just trying to understand what the mechanism is.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

For the grains and pH results that I've provided the mash thickness was between 2.10-2.20 qt/lb. Typically I like to mash using 12 gallons of treated water and between 20-23 lbs. of grain.

 

[dmr]

In order to determine the effects on water on mash pH we need alkalinity in mEq/L which we get from alkalinity in ppm as CaCO3 or from bicarbonate if we know that the bicarbonate is 61 times the alkalinity in mEq/L. But if a reporter gives you bicarbonate number from his Ward Labs report we cannot determine alkalinity unless we also have pH or carbonate as well. Carbonate is often simply < 1 and Ward Labs is still not computing bicarbonate correctly AFAIK. I see confusion arising here. It would be much better if you asked for alkalinity as CaCO3.

Indeed, for future mash-pH-data posts, it is ideal to know either

(i) alkalinity as CaCO_3 or

(ii) ppm bicarbonate along with the pH of the source water.

Thanks for pointing this out, AJ.

 

[dmr]

For each beer, I add ( to the mash water before reaching mash-in temperature ) all salts and whatever qty of acid Bru'nWater tells me to add to get the pH in range. I mash in, start the mash, which in my case is a continous recirculation - Grainfather Connect. After 15 minutes, I take a sample of the wort. I rapidly cool it down in a bowl of cold water ( I have well water ) with ice cubes. I stir and use a thermometer to check when the wort has reached somewhere around 66-68F. I then take a pH reading. If content with the pH, I do nothing. If too high, I add more acid to the on-going mash, wait a few minutes and then take a new sample. I also treat my sparge water, to get it in the 5.4-5.5 range. I do check pH after the mash, pre-boil ( with the sparge water added ) and post-boil.

Thanks for the reply. So does this mean for all of your data above that all of the reported acid was added before your given mash pH values, or, in some cases, was there some acid added after the given pH values? I ask because the pH readings we need here are those that have been taken after a known quantity of acid has been added. Cheers!

 

[dmr]

Hoppy Pilsner
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Pilsner 1.6L + 6.6 lb Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner 1.8L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.9 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5.8 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

India Schwarzbier
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Thomas Fawcett Roasted Rye 200L + 1.1 lb BestMalz Black Malt 435L
2. 5.5 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.2 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. NO Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added ( NO baking soda either )
6. ph 5.35 at both 15 and 30' | 19C / 66F

Vienna Lager
1. 12.1 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 1.1 lb Castle Biscuit Malt 19L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.8 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 20' | 19C / 66F

British Golden Ale
1. 11 lb Simpsons Maris Otter 3L + 2.2 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 2.4 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 5 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.25 at 15' | 19C / 66F

Belgian Blond
1. 6.6 lb Weyermann Vienna 4L + 4.4 lb Weyermann Wheat 2L + 2.2 Simpsons Malted Oats 2L
2. 5.3 gallons
3. Na: 2.7 ppm | Ca: 10.2 ppm | Mg: 2.6 ppm | SO4: 6 ppm | Cl: 3.3 ppm | Nitrate: 4.5 ppm | Alkalinity 42.7 ppm
4. 1.5 gr CaCl2 + 0.5 gr Gypsum + 0.6 gr Epsom + 0.6 gr NaCl + 1 gr Brewtan B
5. 6.6 ml Phosphoric Acid 75% ( 1 year old ) added at various tages moments in the mash
6. ph 5.35 at 15' | 19C / 66F

Sorry, but I have one more question. Do you know if your alkalinity number is "as CaCO_3 (calcium carbonate)" or is simply the HCO_3 (bicarbonate) concentration? Thanks again!

 

[thehaze]

HCO3 . Bru'nWater reports alkalinity at 35 ppm.

I can see my post was a bit confusing. I did take a pH reading at the times stated above and after that I added more acid, amounting to the qty stated for each recipe. At the 60 minutes mark - end of mash - the pH was the one written above. So I would have to change my post and say that.

I know that the pH would rise during the mash, towards the end. My experience is that it's usually pretty stable and does not change all that much, unless you are adding heaping amounts of acid.

 

[Horseflesh]

Man, just when I thought I had a clue, Martin blows up my pH test method!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I’m still hearing conflicting results though and that’s a problem for all of us. On one hand there’s reported evidence of mash pH values locking in quickly and remaining stable. On the other reports of mash pH rising throughout the entire mash.

I don’t think I’m misinterpreting what’s been posted here over the past day or two. How can those observations be accurate when they’re both completely different from each other?

 

[Paulaner]

I've also noted a slight PH rise during the mash of anywhere between .02 -.04. I also stick with the same water to grain ratio and perform a modified Brauwelt step mash and take the measurements at the completion of every step and cool the sample to the same temp of my calibration solution. Just talking out my a$$, but I wonder if this has something to do with our measuring process since we're not monitoring in-line readings.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I can live with a range of a few hundreds of a point but not a few tenths of a point of pH accuracy.

 

[Big Monk]

Short story: I am requesting that actual mash pH measurements (and relevant ancillary information) be posted in this thread.

Motivation: A number of recent threads on this forum have been discussing the relative merits of various programs that predict mash pH. However, in order to assess and develop such programs, actual data is required. So far, such data appears to markedly absent. Hence this thread. I hope in the long run this thread will be a useful repository of data for anyone interested in this subject.

What's needed: The following is needed for such data to be useful.

1. Grain bill [specific grains mashed and amount of each grain (in lbs), ideal if grain color (Lovibond) is also included)]
2. Amount of mash strike water (in gallons)
3. Ionic content of source water [Na, Ca, Mg, SO_4, Cl, Nitrate (if available) and alkalinity (as calcium carbonate or simply HCO_3 concentration), all in ppm (= mg/L)]
4. Salts added [CaCl, CaSO_4, MgSO_4, NaCl, NaHCO_3, and/or Ca(OH)_2, in grams]
5. Acids added [%'age and amount (in mL)]
6. Mash pH [when taken (from beginning of mash) and temperature of liquid when measured are helpful]


I'll get the ball rolling. Here are data from a recent beer of a fellow homebrewer:

5.0 Lbs Weyermann Pale Wheat
4.7 Lbs Briess American Brewer's Two-Row
0.85 Lbs Goldswaen Red (15L-23L caramel malt)
4 gallons distilled water
4 grams CaCl2
4 grams CaSO4
3.8 ml lactic acid (88%)
Mash pH 5.23 @ ~ 30 minutes

Cheers!

Entered this to check:

 

[ajdelange]

In my experience mash pH drifts dramatically in the first few minutes and then starts to approach an equilibrium value asymptotically with things pretty well settled at around 25 - 30 minutes. But additional "creep" of a couple of hundredths, up or down, from the 30 minute point on is possible. When I settled on 30 minutes as the point at which pH should be measured that was somewhat arbitrary but based mostly on the observation that things were pretty stable at that point and that, as the pH trajectory suggests, the reactions are pretty much, though not entirely, complete, at that point. IOW if beer produced with mash pH of 5.4 read at 30 minutes is good it doesn't much matter that the pH is 5.42 at 45 min or an hour. The 30 minute reading is a good and reasonable indicator. Plus you don't want to wait an hour to see if you screwed up. You don't want to wait half and hour so I recommend taking readings as quickly as you can for the first half hour and then more infrequently thereafter. With a little experience you will be able to predict where you will be at half an hour based on a couple earlier readings.

 

[Horseflesh]

Say we standardize on 30 minutes -- or any other value.

What if we do a step mash? Maybe I start with a 15 minute ferulic acid rest and then bring it up to the sacc rest temperature. Does the mash pH test timer start when the grain hits the water, or does it start at the beginning of the sacc rest?

 

[eric19312]

I’m still hearing conflicting results though and that’s a problem for all of us. On one hand there’s reported evidence of mash pH values locking in quickly and remaining stable. On the other reports of mash pH rising throughout the entire mash.

I don’t think I’m misinterpreting what’s been posted here over the past day or two. How can those observations be accurate when they’re both completely different from each other?

Would recirculation lead to faster stabilization of mash pH? Sounds like The Beerary clearly is recirculating (in line measurement) how about those hundreds of tests @mabrungard is reporting on? I have also seen effect where my early pH readings are pretty low (like 5.15 at 10 min when targeting 5.4 but they do seem to come up over time).

I'd also wonder if it would be different if you were using sour malt instead of lactic acid. Using lactic acid the acid is in the water and so the pH will start low and come up to final value as the grain neutralizes the acid in the water. Perhaps using sour malt the acid is released into the liquid at about the same rate as the neutralizing ions creating less of a transition.

I think building a data base like this is an interesting idea but wonder if differences in technique from brewer to brewer will hopelessly confound the results.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Well here's the thing. Are software developers supposed to include a disclaimer telling the user when their mash samples should be taken? In other words for example "This software's pH predictions should only be checked for accuracy 30 minutes into the mash with the temperature of the sample cooled to 77F/25C".

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Would recirculation lead to faster stabilization of mash pH?

I use recirculation during the mash on my system so that's all I can speak to.

I think building a data base like this is an interesting idea but wonder if differences in technique from brewer to brewer will hopelessly confound the results.

Another great point. To add another twist what do users think when software displays a mash pH prediction? Using the same grain bill will one user think the pH prediction is valid at 30 minutes and another at 60 minutes? There are about a dozen bits of information that need to accompany any mash pH reporting in order to make it meaningful.

 

[dmr]

HCO3 . Bru'nWater reports alkalinity at 35 ppm.

I can see my post was a bit confusing. I did take a pH reading at the times stated above and after that I added more acid, amounting to the qty stated for each recipe. At the 60 minutes mark - end of mash - the pH was the one written above. So I would have to change my post and say that.

I know that the pH would rise during the mash, towards the end. My experience is that it's usually pretty stable and does not change all that much, unless you are adding heaping amounts of acid.

Thanks for the clarification. Cheers!