using RO water + all grain = some kind of water profile?

Basically, does the process of mashing release any kind of minerals into the water by itself?

 

Not enough to give the enzymes or yeast the ability to work properly.

 

Mashing does release minerals from the grain into the wort, but the concentrations of many ions are insufficient for good fermentation performance.

Brewers should note that decoction mashing releases more minerals from the grain than does infusion mashing. The grain boiling of decoction helps break down the cell walls and release more into the wort.

 

Amylase needs calcium to work anyway. All RO Isn't the best idea.

 

There are minerals in water that effect ph. The process the water goes through removes those minerals and can throw off the ph. RO is great for extract/steaping but for ag your better off mixing it with tap water. I would boil 2/3 of your volume the night before, tap water, and let it rest uncovered to dissipate chlorine. Most citys use chloride instead of chlorine because it stays in solution longer, if you have chloride in your water and you can taste it after the rest, if you taste chlorine then drop in a chlorine neutralizing tablet and brew away. Use RO for the balance of the water and you are generally good to go.

VB

 

It's pretty difficult to quantify, so I just assume that it doesn't. You need to have at least 50 ppm of calcium for the yeast to be happy.

 

Go to brew science and look at the water primer sticky.

 

I brewed Kolsch and pilsner with 100% RO water without any ill effects that I can tell, mashed without problem, got good efficency, fermented down dry as I wanted, taste good, can't tell any difference from tap water. Speaking from a first hand experience not from since behind it. Best idea probably mix RO water with tap water

 

Yeah, I was just curious if the grains themselves have significant minerals in them, I don't plan on using all RO (unless I'm doing extract), though I might start doing half RO half spring for certain beers.

 

Hmm, just had an interesting idea. In theory, could you do something like all RO + yeast nutrient and get a healthy fermentation? Or is the problem that you need certain minerals for efficient mashing?

 

What ions do we need that are not sufficient? I was under the impression it was only Calcium and that there was sufficient Magnesium in malt and we don't really need any of the others other than trace amounts of some; such as zinc. Are there no trace amounts of zinc in malt?

In any case, if 100% RO plus Calcium is not sufficient; 90% RO plus 10% tap water plus Calcium should be. The implication in the water primer sticky is; "get everything really low, then add some Calcium back in". Usually the 'get everything really low' is a byproduct of reducing alkalinity but the only addition is Calcium (chloride or sulphate but not carbonate).

 

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Ajdelange has discussed this ad nauseum. It's so cheap and easy to add minerals back to your water. Spend $2 on gypsum and CaC03, and follow Ajdelange's baselines.

 

I think you mean CaCl, it's the main addition suggested in the primer, aj usually doesn't advocate using chalk. And the only reason we're adding CaCl is for the Calcium, the chloride is just sort of 'along for the ride'. No Magnesium additions, etc.

 

I wanted to add that not all RO water is equal. There are cheap, single stage RO systems and there are spendy, multi-stage systems.

'real' RO water is so stripped of minerals it actually does a poor job of supporting life.

Many of the 'grocery store' RO water units don't have frequent filter changes, and thus won't be truly pure. Not saying the water is bad, but it probably isn't the ultra pure 'true RO/DI' water that needs to be reconstituted with some minerals and buffers.

 

OK, I know I'll feel stupid after getting an answer, because it's probably so easy it's ridiculous, but...

I know what DI water is, but WTF is 'RO' water?

I deal with flipping acronyms all day and just cant muster the brain power to figure out RO right now! Or maybe its this delicious Drop Top clone I brewed 4 weeks ago that I'm now drinking!

 

Sorry, water treatment is my professional business and reverse osmosis (RO) water is never completely devoid of all ions. The rejection ratio of RO membranes vary based on their intended usage and the type of ions in the raw water. Since RO membranes have tiny pores that limit the passage of ions that are larger than the pore diameter, the larger the ion the better it is rejected from the product water. It turns out that monovalent ions such as sodium, potassium, chloride are smaller in diameter and they pass through the membrane into the product water at a higher rate than the larger divalent ions such as calcium, magnesium, and sulfate. The concentration of ions that make through the membrane into the product water is proportional to the concentration in the raw water.

So if you have a bunch of calcium or sodium in your raw water, you will end up with some of those ions in the product water. In the large municipal and industrial systems I deal with, they do have multiple membrane stages so that you do end up with much lower ion concentrations in the product water. Fortunately for most home systems, they are single stage membranes that typically reject 90 to 98 percent of the ions from the raw water.

 

DI deionized
RO reverse osmosis

 

Sorry, that's what I meant

 

I should'a known. See now I feel dumb, or maybe smarter now knowing what it means.

 

The grocery store RO unit I get my water from has a little display that says when it was last 'serviced' and it's always either that day or the day before. I've always sort of thought; "Yea, right and I have a bridge in Brooklyn..." According to the flow diagragm on the front it has two RO filters plus some carbon/UV. I wonder what they consider 'service'?

mabrungard,
is the RO water profile in Bru'N Water an average based on 'middle of the road' feed water at some certain rejection? I've always sort of wondered what is actually in the RO water from the grocery store machine.

 

The RO profile in Bru'n Water represents a typical product water from a home RO unit that has its feed water pre-softened with an ion-exchange water softener (salt water). This arrangement is a typical recommendation for home RO installation in areas with high hardness in order to reduce membrane fouling. That is one reason why the sodium content is a little higher, but even if the feed water was a typical hard water, the sodium content may still be slightly high since the monovalent sodium ions can pass more easily through the membrane.

The Ca and Mg content can be considered typical, the Na content is probably slightly higher than typical, but then you're only talking about a difference of 2 or 3 ppm.

The RO profile is included in Bru'n Water to illustrate that RO water is not ion free, but it has very low ionic content.

 

The stores in my area that offer RO list the TDS reading at each service date. Since I know (roughly) the TDS of the feed water, I can gauge the rejection rate. They are both doing better than the quoted rates for domestic units in the low hundreds of dollars so I wouldn't expect a better output with the kind of home unit that is cheap enough that the break even point vs buying the water would ever come.

 

Real world experience = brewed many good beers with RO water. Brewed many excellent beers with RO water and several minerals added back into the mix. Turns out the AJ Delange Calcium Chloride and Gypsum (as needed) is simple and effective compared to my earlier attempts at being a mad scientist.

Portland water is pretty much a clean slate without RO, and the RO as expected doesn't change the TDS count much.