The homebrew "twang" is gone!!!!

I know in some other threads there has been some discussion about a perceived taste in homebrew, a sort of home brew "twang" if you will. Some have said this is a result of extract brewing while others contend that great tasting beer can be made from extract. I'm sure that others can indeed make great tasting beer from extract; however, I am not one of them

So far every batch of extract brew that I have made has had the same underlying flavor to it, no matter what the style of beer. This "twang" in my beer has finally come to an end. About 6 weeks ago I made my first two batches of all grain beer. I just tasted one of them and all I can say is WOW!

Even my wife (who normally doesn't like my beer) loved it!. The homebrew twang is gone!!! All I taste is malty goodness with a perfect balance of hops. So the moral of my story is that if any of you are on the fence about jumping into all grain brewing you should go ahead and make the jump. It's nice when the fruits of your labor actually taste good!

 

So I haven't had a batch ready yet. I have tasted my brews at SG time and I like the hell out of them....Both Extract....

I hope I'm one who can do extract because I'm not prepared for AG yet....I need more stuff...:rockin:

 

Were you doing LME, DME, or both? I have a theory that the twang is more common with LME, especially is no steeping grains are used.

 

I almost always used LME in my beginning times, (oh so many months ago, my join date is weeks before my first brew date), and I always had that twang. I felt like I wasn't making beer, but making "homebrew" instead. Don't get me wrong, "homebrew" is great, but BEER is even better. Since going AG, I only make Beer. Maybe my process has improved, maybe it's getting away from the LME....but isn't it awesome when you make Beer? Real, honest to goodness, Vikings and Monks drank this Beer?

 

I noticed a twang in some of my brews but not all. I went back and looked at all the beers I have brewed extract and it seemed almost all of the them that had that "twang" were made using LME. The ones with DME did not have a noticeable "twang." It could also be due to the LHBS I used to get my supplies from did not have the highest turnover rate.

Regardless, I too have switched to AG and whatever was causing the off-flavor is now gone!

 

Anybody who thinks that extract always has a "twang" and that AG is always superior needs to go read this thread:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/bbd-brewing-kabes-secret-apa-139831/#post1587313

'Nuff said.

 

I don't think anyone is saying "all extracts have twang". I rarely notced it in mine. But it is more likely that twang is obtained from extract brewing.

From what I've read, it's mostly a nutrient and freshness issue. It's possible for the Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN) to degrade and for complex sugars to break down to simple sugars. Too little FAN and the yeast is nutrient starved and off flavors or under attenuation results. Too many simple sugars and cidery flavors can develop.

But if steeping grains are used, they can at least resolve the FAN issue.

And then there us the alleged but unproven problem that disreputable LHBS stores that sell their own brand of LME may be cutting their LME with sugar syrup.

DME has a more stable shelf life than LME and is more difficult to tamper with.

 

I think it has a lot more to do with fermentation temperature. Most new brewers, don't have a set up to control their temps very well, and attribute it to the extract.

I have found much better results having a better control of my temps.

 

It has everyhing to do with the freshness of he extract, not extract brewing. Since I started getting my extract from northern brewer and Austin homebrew supply the twang has stopped. I plan on going all grain eventually but not because I can't make good beer with extract.

 

For me it was coopers LME vs. everyone else. I always had good results with Coopers. If I had a problem, I was using something other than Coopers. I figured my LHBS had more turn over with the Coopers, so it was freasher.

 

I was 50/50 with my LME related to "twang" - I think it was due to ferm temps, but not positive. DME never had a prob.

Since I went AG in June of 09 I've never had a bad beer yet, nothing even remotely related to twang but have been keeping a better control over high ferm temps.

 

Is the expiration date listed on the side of jugs of liquid malt extract a good indicator of its freshness? Or does it start to pick up off flavors long before?

 

I made plenty of great extract batches with both DME & LME, but IMO there is absolutely a difference in the quality of the final product with all grain. Even my best extract batches don't stand up to any of my AG brews...

 

As an experiment, I recently did a small extract batch using two year old Wheat LME. It was just LME and hops, boiled for 30 minutes and fermented with 1272.

It was awful. It's getting poured out. Undrinkable.

 

When I was doing extract, I found that more frequently than not it was directly related to the type of beer. I never had any major issues with stouts or porters having that "twang" while pale ales and ambers definitely had it. I alternated between LME and DME, so it was more the color in my experience.

I did a little temp control with the extract; putting fermenter in bucket of water and rotating frozen bottles to keep temp in the range I was expecting. Same method I do for AG now. I didn't find any difference in temp control between controlling and room temp (mid 70s) as far as the "twang" goes.

To be fair, I used a boxed LME recipe for the porter and a Austin Homebrew LME for a stout. I pieced together recipes for the amber and pale ale at the LHBS. It could very well have been a freshness difference. The LHBS is more wine oriented than beer.

My experiences are all that I can speak about, I don't know much more than that.

 

I'm going to have to agree to the best of my experience. I'm sure extract and PM can be amazing, but my PM brews had the "twang" taste, if you will. Made the same exact beer/recipe as AG and it was much much better. AG all the way, man.

Edit: I'd like to add that I brewed these two batches back to back (one friday, one saturday) and both were done the exact same (same rest time (90 minute- it was an oatmeal stout), same fermentation temp, same yeast, etc.) and the AG was much better. I used LME and DME in the PM version, added the LME last 10 minutes. Still "twang". lol

 

I'll let you know if anyone expresses that opinion.

It is interesting that you chose a recipe that cannot be made without mashing to defend extract brewing.

While we are sharing anecdotes, while some extract and partial mash beers win awards, the vast majority of award winning beers are all-grain.

I don't put a lot of weight on anecdotes but you seem to so I thought that would be compelling.

 

Exactly.


If you used 5 year old milled grain, your beer would suck. A lot of people buy LME from stores that may not even turn over all their LME in 5 years.

 

Then why are so many competitions won by extract beers?

 

I'd be hard pressed to believe that they are. Occasionally, sure. Extract brews can be outstanding.

I would be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of competitions are won by all grain brews.

 

And you'd be wrong.

 

The NHC publishes winning recipes, nearly all are all-grain.

Very few other competitions really require a recipe, so its hard to provide any hard data. My anecdotal experience suggests that the vast majority of beers winning competitions are all-grain. I happen to not think that is because all-grain is better as much as that the best brewers mostly brew all-grain.

Hopefully you realize that the NHC data published in DGB is extremely dated, even though I doubt that comes close to justifying your claim anyway.

 

I agree with that.

Hard topic to argue. As remilard pointed out, there's very little data out there beyond personal experience to prove anything.

I've entered and been to a number of competitions, and I can't say I ever remember seeing (or even ever hearing of) an extract brewer winning Best of Show. I have no doubt that it happens. Again, no evidence, though.

As remilard said, I don't think it's a clear cut extract vs AG thing. It has to do with experience and all around brewing technique. Things like proper yeast pitching, fermentation temperature, water, racking management, and proper storage have as much (if not more) to do with great beer than what the wort is actually comprised of. A lot of those proper techniques may not even be developed until well after a brewer switches to AG.

An extract brewer who uses fresh ingredients, pitches the proper amount of healthy yeast, and maintains consistent fermentation temperatures is probably going to produce better beer than an AG brewer who pitches a smack pack and sticks the fermenter in a closet.

 

Back to this argument, huh? It seems that the people here REALLY want to believe that extract brewing can be as good as all grain brewing. I'm with that arrogant ass Remilard on this one, though. I just don't see it. Sure, extract beers have won competitions. Some people have won BoS with their first beer ever. One time, I say a dog and a cat sleeping next to each other!

Just because people say it is true, doesn't make it true. It is a myth that goes right along with the myriad of bad advice that is shoveled out on this forum as fact. Again, there's a ton of good stuff too, but weeding through it makes me skeptical of anything people "believe" on here.

 

Thank you!

 

I am sure you are right there but it doesn't prove much to your point. The majority of novice homebrewers and casual ones are probably extract brewers. As you get more invested in the hobby both emotionally and financially you tend to move towards all grain for a number of reasons. The people who get this into brewing are the majority of the ones who will enter competitions. It stands to reason that if the majority of entrants areall grain brews the majority of winners would be as well.

 

The fact that you disagree with something doesn't make a myth.

 

Looks like remilard beat me to my point. Guess I need to read all the pages before I decide to chime in.

 

I guess we are still waiting for you to demonstrate that extract beers win more competitions than all-grains.

I've directed you to recipes for NHC winners which overwhelmingly indicates the opposite for that competition.

 

I think this might come down to a science vs. faith type argument. You can say, "LOOK! EVOLUTION!" all you want, but people want to hold on to their beliefs. You'll probably just have to be content with the proof you have.

 

It's also possible that people brewing AG are likely to have a lot more brewing experience than people brewing extract. People with far more experience are also probably more likely to enter (and win) competitions. This would result in AG recipes winning more often due more to the brewer, not necessarily because of the specific technique or recipe.

Obviously this is just a generalization; I'm sure there are plenty of people who win competitions with a minimum of brewing experience and an extract recipe or people with lots of experience who brew extract recipes.

 

lol nice, just called all extract brewers who think their beer is better incompatibilist nincompoops. I'm going to stick with what you said because I like the idea haha

 

Freshness is the main reason. I had purchased a few kits last year from NB and let them sit for 2-3 months before brewing. They all have a extract twang in them. Kits that I brewed right away were fine.

 

I fixed your comment for accuracy.

 

I think that the majority of beers entered in the HNC are all-grain as opposed to extract so that might have a LITTLE something to do with most winners being all-grain recipes. That, and the fact that most people who are doing all-grain have paid their dues and worked their way up to it and have plenty of experience.

I'm not going to argue that brewing with all extract is going to stand up to all grain, but you can make a beer using extract that's just as good when you partial mash. Having extract in your beer isn't automatically going to make it bad. My beers are living proof of that. Granted, I use a lot of grain and just use enough extract to bump up my partial boils to full volume.

Partial mashing, using fresh extract and using late extract additions are key things to making good beer using extract.

 

I am soooo not getting into this argument
but I did want to point out that the recent HBT competition required a posting of the winning recipes. Here is the thread:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/2009-hbt-bjcp-winners-recipes-141131/

So those who are interested can do an analysis and report back

 

I agree. In addition, people who bother with the AG process
are the type of people who are also going to bother with
controlling precisely the other aspects of the brewing
process, such as temperature control and proper pitching
rates, using starters etc.

The only problem with liquid extract is that it darkens and
caramelizes with time, so attempting to make a light beer
with old LME is going to result in darker beers and some
unwanted "dark" flavors, hence the absence of a problem
when brewing dark ales like porters and stouts. It's not
a problem with dry extract.

I've never experienced anything I would call a "twang"
with extracts. I made plenty of bad beers early on though
before I learned to control the process.

Ray

 

In addition (from another thread I posted in):

I especially liked the comments in this article:
http://byo.com/stories/article/indi...21-extract-vs-all-grain-wild-yeasts-mr-wizard

"A friend once related an encounter with a beer snob that I have never
forgotten. One day while working in a brewpub in the San Francisco Bay,
a German brewer came in. They had a bock beer on tap and the German
brewer was very complimentary of the beer. However, once they began
discussing the details of the brewery the German realized that the
brewhouse was an infusion set up. His opinion of the bock was instantly
changed because he declared that bock beers could not be made with
infusion mashing. In his opinion, a bock beer had to be brewed using
decoction or step mashing, and of course his preference was for the
decoction method. My friend attempted to argue with this guy and used
the German brewer’s compliments of his beer as fuel for the argument,
but as you can guess the debate ended with no meeting of the minds.

Snobs hang their hats on methods and tradition and cannot accept that
there is often more than one solution to a problem. I personally do not
waste my time arguing with people like that. The most important part of
brewing is the finished product — not how you got there. Some beer styles
are difficult to replicate using malt extract, while many others — most
English ales, for example — can be brewed successfully using either method.
If you focus on the merits of the beer in the glass, choose the most
appropriate methods to meet your objective and fine tune your own brewing
method, I believe you will be happy with your decision, whether all-grain or
extract!"

Ray

 

36 AG
2 PM
1 Extract

 

Bored_at_work, thanks!