Storing beer in a cornie.

Hey everybody.

My pumpkin ale is ready to rack to a keg, but my kegerator isn't ready yet.
If I rack to the keg, hit it with about 5 psi while purging the oxygen a few times would the beer be ok to sit in the keg for a while until the kegerator is ready?

Nick

 

Sure can! I'd hit it with about 30psi a few times instead of 5psi though.

 

Why's that? So the beer will absorb the co2 whilst sitting?

 

No, 30psi will ensure you get all of the oxygen out, due to a higher pressure.

 

I leave beer sitting in my corny's at room temp all the time while I wait for room to become available in the kegerator.. sometimes for a couple months or more...

Every couple days, I hook it back up to the gas for a minute, as the beer absorbs the CO2.. Plus it gives it a bit of a head start on carbonation...

When I first fill the keg, I hook it up to the gas, and then pull the pressure release ring ever so slightly to allow it to force regular air out.. I'll do that a few times, letting it sit for several hours inbetween...

That way, I end up with almost all CO2 in there...

 

not to mention the higher pressure will seat the o-ring much better providing a better seal

 

Bingo!

 

There's a chart around somewhere that gives pressure rates at room temp that convert to pressure rates at serving temp..

I plan to eventually get a second regulator and use it to pre carbonate beer at room temp.. I think that room temp the beer needs to be carbed at about 25-30 PSI, so that when it is stuck in the kegerator and chilled it is ready to go...

 

So if I just let it sit for a week or so at 25-30 PSI it should be good to go? No need to shake/roll the keg?

 

If its going to sit for that long, why not purge the headspace, then add some priming sugar and let it naturally carb?

 

Absolutely don't shake the keg! Don't ever shake the keg! I hate that people still use that method. It is incredibly inconsistent and will often result in over-carbonation, which will greatly frustrate you.
All through your brewing process, you need to have patience. Carbonating is no exception. If force carbing, use the set and forget method. Sure it may take a week or more, but plan accordingly!

 

I know plenty of pros who shake kegs. My local brewery uses a machine (basically a motor that's connected to a tray in such a way that it rocks back and forth, see-saw style) to carbonate their Sanke kegs. Because of this machine, they're able to have more than 10 different beers on tap at all times. Therefore, they are able to make much more money. They have created a table for different beers that illustrates the time it takes on the machine to get a certain amount of carbonation.

 

OK, I won't shake the keg!!!

Sitting at 25 PSI will do it then? I always thought you'd want it to sit at about 10-12 PSI?

Oh, and the keg is sitting in the fridge that will serve as my kegerator as we speak. Which is running at about 5 deg C. (40 F?) if that makes any difference.

 

30psi will also insure you get a proper seal on your keg.

 

I am doing this as I type with a corny full of mirror pond clone with no place to go because my kegerator is full. But, keep the pressure at what is required to properly carbonate, not 5 psi.

 

This sounds pretty drastic. I've only been brewing for 5 years and have done this on occasion. What's the problem? It seems to me if you do this to get the process started the the only you'll overcarbonate the beer is if you apply too much pressure at the wrong temperature.

 

+1 very good idea and I do that often with good results

 

its not because of the machine. the machine simply replaces the planning ahead needed to do the same thing. its only a shortcut to doing it the normal way.

i agree that shaking is probably not the best idea. if you get the process down well enough, it could be adequate, but the results are always going to be completely dependant on the exact procedure you use. not to mention that carbonating that fast causes a temporary pH spike and a slightly harsher feel to the beer. this goes away after a week or two.

but if you are waiting a week or two for the beer to mellow after burst carbonating, or if you are aging the beer properly in the first place, why not just use the set and forget method.

its pretty hard to screw up the procedure of: set regulator at 12psi, connect keg, leave it alone.

remember though, that requires yeast in the keg. when i put beer in a keg, almost all of the yeast is left in secondary.

 

Actually, it is because of the machine. This is a fact, not an opinion.

I've never even heard of someone proposing any evidence that shaking results with a "slightly harsher feel to the beer."

Unless you completely filter your beer, there's always plenty of yeast suspended in the beer (regardless of a secondary vessel) to continue fermentation. That's how we naturally carbonate.

 

How long has the beer been in the fermenter? Why not leave it there or rack to secondary to condition until your kegerator is available?

I have learned the hard way that the set and forget carbonation method is the easiest most reliable method. I find it takes a full 2 weeks to carb up to where I am happy, but like others have said, it needs to simply be part of the brewing process.

 

+1.
This is true even if you cold crash before carbonating (with sugar) in the keg.

 

I shake kegs from time to time in order to speed the time from kegging to dispensing. My technique is to chill the beer overnight at serving pressure. Once it's cold, I bump the pressure to 30 psi and shake for a few minutes. Reduce the pressure to serving pressure, let it settle for a few minutes, and taste test. If it's still flat, repeat the process.

I shoot for slightly undercarbonated beer, allowing time and normal serving pressure to take care of the rest. I can handle slightly undercarbonated beer for a day or two.

This technique works very well in a pinch!

 

I think shaking works very well but I would do it only at serving pressure. There is no chance of over carbing this way.

Edit: any method that uses elevated pressure is a recipe for over carbonation. That's been my experience anyhow.

 

Ooops, mispost

 

Hence, I recommend an air of caution when doing so. It doesn't take long to overshoot.

 

OK, so I had it at 25 psi in the fridge for about 18 hours (unconnected to the tank), then I bled it and reset at 12 psi (now connected to the tank) and I'm gonna leave it sit for a few more days or a week. Should that be good?

Thanks,

Nick

 

If you're careful you can get away with it. You seem to be a well experienced and knowledgeable brewer and probably have it down to a science which is good. But my point is there's very little gained by putting it under higher-than-serving pressure so I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is just learning to keg and I don't do it myself.

Just set it at serving pressure and shake. The shaking increases the surface area in contact with the gas and accelerates absorption. The total volumes (i.e. carbonation level) is a function of liquid temp and gas pressure so the shaking will not overcarbonate your beer *IF* you have it set at serving pressure. The downside to shaking is that you must let it sit overnight for the resultant foam to settle.

The only sure way to tell is to pull a pint and see if it is to your liking

 

Wow. You contradicted other persons' viewpoints because of things you know to be factual, and no one told you to go self-procreate.

The shaker table allows the brewery to produce more finished beer with the same amount of serving kegs. Less time carb'ing means less volume required for the pipeline. No amount of planning can fix that, unless you mean financial planning for investment in more serving kegs.

 

You can quickly reduce it to the proper pressure by hooking the gas up to the gas input, setting it to the desired carb pressure, then hooking up a party tap to the output.. Turn the keg upside down, and open the party tap for a few seconds to release gas... hold it open until you hear gas bubbling up through the beer..

then release the party tap handle and wait for the bubbling to stop.... when it does, open the party tap again for 3-4 seconds, and then again wait for the bubbling to stop... do this several times (maybe half a dozen or a dozen)...

When you turn the keg back right side up, you'll find that it's properly pressurized to what you set your regulator to during the process.. If for some reason, it's still over carbed, turn it upside down and do it some more...

I imagine you could do this using your regular kegerator tap, but I find it easier with a party tap...

What is happening, is that as you allow the incoming gas to come up through the beer, you are 'agitating' the suspended CO2 in the beer, causing it to be released... much like 'shaking a can of soda before opening it.. but it can only be released to equal the pressure coming in..

I've seen a set up (on this site somewhere) where a guy got a regulator and hooked the primary side up to a gas barb and had the secondary side hooked up to nothing.. He then hooked up a gas out from his gas manifold to a beer out barb...

IOW, he hooked up his keg backwards... He set the outgoing regulator to the pressure he desired the beer to be carbed at, and then would send in blasts of CO2... basically doing the same thing I just said, only without turning the keg upside down... The principle is still the same, sending agitating gas up through the beer to release excess suspended carbonation..

I once quick carbed a keg of beer this way.. took it from zero carb to fully carbed in less than three hours...

I hooked up the gas to a chilled keg of beer, set the incoming pressure to I think something like 40 PSI, and shook the crap out of the keg (on it's side) every five minutes or so for a couple hours... Then I set the pressure to 14 PSI (what I run at here), and turned it upside down and used a party tap to release the excess carbonation... 10 minutes or so later, I had a fully carbed keg of beer...

Saved the day!

 

"Self Procreation" is impossible. So go self copulate you igorant freak!




Seriously though, carbing aside, too many brewers think "Into the keg, then into the cold"

I have 2 full kegs aging right now, even though there is room in the fridge.

 

LMAO! Regardless of the fact that you are nothing more than a source of amusement, I must ask... how much brewing experience do you actually have? Do you even brew beer?

 

HEY! No pissing contests in my thread!

Please and thank you.

 

Apparently you are ignorant of female sharks and parthenogenesis, and if you open the door to things outside the animal kingdom.... Although no copulation is involved, which was my point, or should I say EarthBound's point. So yes, your verbiage is more specific. I promise to not make that mistake again.

 

I could say the same. So far the only discourse I have had with you involved you being so enraged by a position I took (in a discussion that you did not even materially contribute to), that you made a remark (directed at me) requiring deletion by the mods and closing of the thread. And just when I had another live one on the line, too.

I say we abide by the OP's request.

 

I agree on respecting the OP's request, but I must clarify something with you: I was joking with you in that other thread. You're nothing more than a source of entertainment for me, so don't take me so seriously.

I have never been angered in any way by anyone on HBT. In fact, I consider all of you to be my (imaginary) friends. Cheers!

 

Just so nobody tries that method of using a regulator-
That may have worked for him, if that is indeed how he did it, but it is a fluke if it does, and isn't reliable. Pressure reducing regulators don't function properly in reverse. The brewing term for a device that would do this is called a spunding valve. There are several threads with the part numbers from Grainger used to build one. Usually they are used for limiting pressure when fermenting under pressure, which is another topic altogether.

 

I think you misunderstood what he is saying, maybe..

You send gas in through the beer dip tube to carbonate. The co2 bubbles up through the beer and dissolves a bit faster than it would just sitting in the headspace. I've done this and think it does help.

But it is risky because the beer can backflow up the gas line and into the regulator. Of course this could also happen with the gas hooked to the gas post if you are rolling the keg (a typical method of quick carbing)

Be careful to never reduce the pressure from the regulator while the gas is hooked to the beer side. A check valve on the gas line is also a very wise safety precaution.

 

The original description was confusing to say the least, and was a bit off topic since it started off talking about de-carbing. However, I think I correctly interpreted the part about the additional regulator itself being hooked up in reverse, which won't work as described to turn it into a spunding valve.

In the post, there were two end goals, carbing and de-carbing, and (at least?) three methods describing how to do them. One was scrubbing excess CO2 using more CO2 to agitate the beer causing a release of dissolved CO2. The equivalent of shaking a soda bottle example, and releasing the gas, only gently and continuously. Another described someone else's fancy technique of using a spunding valve to automatically release the excess pressure while agitating. Contrary to what was stated, the beer can be decarbed below the pressure in the head space, just like what happens to a soda bottle when you shake it. Yet another was a force carbing technique using the same basic gas flow as scrubbing, only to add CO2 into solution. This is like your method of putting gas in through the out door. This was then followed by de-carbing, presumably because he overcarbed(?).

To add some additional variations- You can carb even faster by combining the two, and continuously bubbling CO2 through the beer by using a spunding valve (or cracking the relief valve frequently) to allow a release of excess pressure. This creates a continous flow of CO2 to increase surface transfer. It wastes CO2, but would carb fast. The same overcarbing danger exists if the input pressure is higher than your desired carb level.

A spunding valve can also be used to reduce the carb level slowly, like a set and forget; or rapidly by agitating with bubbled gas, (kind of) like the high pressure shake, rattle, and roll method. The same caveats apply- going with either quick and dirty method you can over-decarbonate just like you can overcarbonate.

Yes, but only a tiny, tiny bit. Even with a stone, something like 90% of the CO2 is dissolved where the plume breaks the surface, unless your release rate is so low the plume doesn't break the surface, but that would make for an extremely slow carb'ing method. With the size of the bubbles coming from the dip tube, the plume effect is insignificant. In this case, the surface of the beer in the head space is where virtually all of the dissolving is taking place. With the set and forget method, one trick is to lay the keg on it side to increase the surface area.

Yes, check valves are your friends. I don't know why they are so expensive ($8) for what they are.

 

burst carbonating causes a temporary pH spike in the liquid of 0.2 to 0.4 points. it was discussed in some edition of brew your own.

i can taste the difference between a keg thats been given 3 weeks to carb on its own, vs a keg that was put on gas yesterday and shaken. even if they have the same level of dissolved CO2.