Starter Yeast Help Please

I have been informed that I need to make a starter Yeast for the beer I am trying to make(ingredients listed below). I have read a bunch of different things on starters and am a little confused. How much starter should I make for a beer that is suppose to be 12.1% ABV. Also should I use a stir started or not? And I have been told to pitch it in quart amounts and will need about a gallon of starter, does that mean that I pitch the starter liquid and then just add another quart to the yeast left in the starter container and let it sit again and just repeat? Also when making the starter do I add a little bit of all the ingrendents to make a small batch of the beer or do I just mix water and DME (I have seen both). I know this is a lot of questions but I am really new to this and this will be my first starter. Thank you.


.124 OG
1.032 FG
49 IBU
12.1% ABV
42 SRM 0.4
IBU/OG

6.62 lb Extra Pale Liquid Malt Extract
6.0 lb Pilsen Light DME
1.0 lb Barley, Flaked Any
1.0 lb Caramel Malt 120L
1.0 lb Black Malt Briess
0.75 lb Milk Sugar (Lactose)
0.75 lb Cane/Beet Sugar (Dextrose)
Hops

Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
1.0 oz Columbus (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 14.5%
1.0 oz Chinook (US) 30 min Boil Leaf 13.0%
Yeasts

Name Lab/Product Attenuation
British Ale Wyeast 1098 74.0%

Extras

Amount Name Time Use
1.0 tsp Cardamom Seed 10.0 min Boil
2.0 each Vanilla Beans 10.0 min Boil
12.0 oz Corn Sugar 14.0 days Bottle

 

Is this a 5 gallon batch?

This is the calculator I use: http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

This is a pretty big beer and so it will require a very large starter. If I were planning this brew, I'd brew a much smaller beer, say a pale or brown ale first using the same yeast and then use the slurry from the first brew to ferment this big SOB. That way you may not even need to make a starter at all, as the first batch becomes the starter for the second and you get two beers out of it.

 

Also, how old is the yeast? Liquid yeast packets can lose about 20% viability after about a month of the "Manufactured On" date. This should be factored in when figuring out how big of a starter you will need

 

your going to need a large starter for something that big.. it will take a couple days
follow instructions here. then I would put it in the fridge overnight decant and do it again in a bigger flask(pitching what you made prior) and maybe even again..idk never made anything that big

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/how-make-yeast-starter-pictorial-76101/

 

^THIS! Brew something without a lot of hop material so that all you need to do is pour a quarter to half the slurry that's left over from the first beer into a new carboy. Don't pitch on the entire slurry, that'll be too much.

 

If you have a stir plate, I recommend using that. If you don't have a stir-plate and a large flask, refer to some of the other suggestions. Either stepping up or brewing a smaller beer are options.

You really just use a calculator (like the one linked above), input your batch size, starting gravity, and beer type (lager/ale), then determine what volume of starter you need to make. The calculator also gives you the weight of DME to use to hit the target gravity (1.030-1.040).

For making the starter, you mix DME with hot water and boil for 15 minutes to sterilize. Cool and pour into your flask/jar, start the stir plate, pitch the yeast, and cover the top with foil. You should leave the yeast smackpack out for at least several hours after breaking the nutrient pillow and allow it to swell up before pitching.

When the starter is past krausen (2 days +/-), I recommend cold crashing in the fridge for several days, then on brew day you can decant most of the beer off and let the yeast warm up prior to pitching. I typically transfer cooled wort on top of the yeast (after its warmed up), swirl, and pitch into the beer.

This beer requires a starter around 2.2 liters with 9 oz of DME, so you will need a large flask to grow it in one go-round. I use 5 liter flasks, they work nicely. I recommend FermCap to keep from foaming over.

 

If you are new to this I would respectfully advise you to seek out a recipe for a smaller beer. This is a monster and will take months and months to age prior to bottling and weeks and weeks to carbonate.

For a beer this big there are a lot of steps that will need to be approached carefully and in a well planned manner if a tasty beverage is to be the result.

Enormous starter
Absolutely decant off the huge volume of foul starter wort. (better a smaller beer first and harvest the yeast for the monster)
Oxygenate prior to pitching
Oxygenate 12-18 hours after pitching
Prepare a blow off
May need to secondary this one to allow bulk aging (I don't secondary but I don't tackle beers this big)
Bottling (if you bottle) will maybe require yeast at bottling
Patience: A would think a minimum of 6 months between brew and tasting. Probably longer.

Best of luck and don't let posts like this deter you. Just wanted to throw my 2c in the mix. I'm sure you may have considered some if not all of these points. Hope it turns out great. (A great Christmas beverage perhaps)

 

Thanks for all the input this really helps me better understand the process. This will only be my 7'th time brewing so maybe the ABV is to high for me to try and tackle this right away. A couple more questions in regards to if I do try to tackle this.

For my starter yeast do I just use DME and water. Or do I use all the ingredients listed?

This is for a 5 gallon batch.

I am purchasing a stir plate and flask. ( so I make the whole 2.2 liter starter batch all at once? Or do a pitch the yeast multiple times?)

Also how do I know when to transfer from the primary to the secondary(which I do use). Because if it will take months and months then that will be different than my normal week in the primary, 2 weeks in the secondary then bottling method.

Also I have been told that I need to have the same wort in the starter to create the yeast that I have for the main batch. Is this not true? Because you suggest that I make a different beer first and then use that slurry as my starter yeast.

Thanks for all the help guys, this was my first post and you all responded so quickly!!

 

Just DME and water + yeast for the starter.

Max starter size will be contingent on how large your flask is. To do it all at once, you would need a 3 or 4L flask. If working with the standard 2L flask, you would need to do it in 2 steps.

Transfer to secondary when at or within a few points from expected FG. Be sure there is very little headspace in the aging vessel since it will be there for a long time. Either a carboy filled all the way to the neck or use a keg.

No, you do not need to use the same wort as the main batch to create the starter.

 

For my starter yeast do I just use DME and water. Or do I use all the ingredients listed?

If you are simply making a starter, DME and water. Some Wyeast nutrient is also recommended.

I am purchasing a stir plate and flask. ( so I make the whole 2.2 liter starter batch all at once? Or do a pitch the yeast multiple times?)

I grow one massive starter in a 5L flask and have good results.

Also how do I know when to transfer from the primary to the secondary(which I do use). Because if it will take months and months then that will be different than my normal week in the primary, 2 weeks in the secondary then bottling method.

I would recommend leaving in primary for a month, then racking to a secondary for however long you plan to age before bottling.

Also I have been told that I need to have the same wort in the starter to create the yeast that I have for the main batch. Is this not true?

Not true. As long as you use a malt-derived sugar source, you are fine.

Because you suggest that I make a different beer first and then use that slurry as my starter yeast.

If you want to make a smaller beer first, go ahead and do that, but it is not necessary. The smaller beer does not have to be anything like the high-gravity beer. Just don't make a smaller beer with weird adjuncts, cause those additions will be mixed in with the trub.

 

The purpose of making a starter is to grow more yeast cells. You do this by putting the yeast into a container with just water and malt extract that is calculated to get you a wort of about 1.040 so you give the yeast some food but not so much as to stress them out. Were I doing this I would make a liter or so of starter wort and pitch the yeast into that. When that is done I would step that up to a larger starter and let that ferment out. This should get you the most yeast cells within a reasonable amount of time.

 

Starter for a malted Barley based beer
Boil DME(light) and water in the flask or pot. Volume of water and weight of DME is dependent on your desired pitch rate. The stir bar can also be boiled along with it if you so desire. This way you feed the yeast what they will be eating in your wort thus getting all the correct genes switched on to create the correct intra-cellular enzymes in the yeast to churn through that sweet-wort containing maltose and its related compounds. Feed them something else such as simple sugars and it switches on different genes. This is not desirable. No other ingredients are needed. You are not trying to make a tasty beverage, you are trying to increase your yeast numbers.

For a wheat beer do the same thing with wheat extract. (this is a mix of wheat and barley extract). The same objectives are met.

Decant your spent starter wort prior to pitching. Taste is bad

A lot of kits tell you the 1-2-3 week mantra. This is not good advice. Ferment till its done. If you want to transfer to secondary go for it. Don't do this after a week. Do it when fermentation is done. Different yeasts take differing times to ferment. Each batch such be treated on its own merits. The other option is to go straight to packaging (bottles or kegs). This is a whole other discussion. Do your research and decide what you want to do based on the supposed merits of each approach.

 

Amazing thank you! If I pitch it in two batches do I need to use two packs of yeast. Or how do I pitch it twice what is the method behind this? Pour the first one out then do the same thing again? And how long can I leave the starter in the Carnot before I transfer in the main wort? Thanks!

 

I recall listening to a White Labs presentation that indicated pitching into larger starters is generally desirable, as it yields greater overall yeast growth. The only reason I see to step up a yeast starter is if you do not have a container/flask large enough to grow one large starter.

 

For two batches at the same time just calculate how much yeast you need for each and size 1 starter accordingly. Divide the yeast into the two batches.

Note: You mention yeast packs. I may be reading too muchinto things but if you are referring to dry yeast packs a starter is not desirable. Just use more packs. (They are cheap)

My timing for a typical Saturday brew would be to make the starter on a Tuesday night. Place on the stir plate and let it do ts thing in the dark for 48 hours or so.

Place it in the fridge on Thursday night.

Take it out of the Fridge Saturday morning and decant the spent wort leaving the yeast cake in the flask. (grab the magnetic stir bar out otherwise I can forget and toss it in too).

As the yeast cake is warming up to room temp I do my brew.

The yeast are pitched 3-4 hours after coming out of the fridge and we are off to the races.

If you like you can measure the gravity of the spent wort to confirm the yeast have done their thing. As shown here. That is just my inner nerd getting its kicks though.

 

Thanks guys Im gunna give it a shot! Just got all my supplies. Doing a two step starter yeast in a 2000ML flask with a stir plate. Thanks for all the help guys really appreciate it.

 

You may find as you continue to make starters that a 5 L flask can come in handy.

 

^^^ Yes, I use to split a vial into (2) 2L flasks but now I have a 5L...It's a beast but sooo roomy.

 

Just took a look back at your recipe, and I would HIGHLY recommend cutting the lactose. It's completely unfermentable, and will only add sweetness and body. With this being such a big beer, and the fact that it's extract, there's going to be plenty of sweetness and body. The lactose is only going to make this thick and cloying.

 

I use the Mr. Malty calculator and for 5 gallons (is that 5.5 into carboy?) using 1 vial (are you using 2 vials?) of yeast that is 2 weeks old on a stir plate it says you basically need a 5 liter starter. Someone said 2.2L in the thread and that just seems horribly small to me, unless I missed you saying that you're using 2 vials of yeast into the starter. If using one vial you will need to prepare a stepped starter, especially in a small flask - even in my 5L flask I'd have to do a stepped starter. Definitely decant all that beer off using only the yeast at the bottom of the flask!

I have an imperial stout aging right now that's only about 6 weeks old. It wasn't as large as yours and took about 3-4 weeks to reach final gravity so I don't think it's unreasonable to leave in primary for a month. I'd start taking gravity readings at 2-3 weeks so you know how it's progressing. I have some oak cubes I'll be adding to mine in about another month and though the plan is to remove the cubes after 3 weeks or so I plan on leaving the beer in secondary (I secondary in a keg where I can purge the O2) until around November. The same timetable will fit your even larger beer.

When making starters an easy way to calculate how many grams of DME you need is to take your water in ml and divide by 10. So 5000 ml / 10 = 500 grams of DME. That should get you pretty close to 1.040.

Good luck with it.

 

Just make sure that you calculate the optimal amount of starter for your flask. I made this mistake, lol...

 

If your gonna be brewing big beers like this, do yourself a favor and get a 5L flask.

Another option would just be to pitch 2 or 3 packets of nottingham.

 

I use the yeast starter calculator at Brewer's Friend with Braukaiser's growth equations and have found it to be adequate. Mr Malty seems to be on the very conservative end. I suggest going through Kai's presentation on yeast growth:

Kai Presentation

Brewer's Friend Calculator

Yeast growth is higher with a lower cell density (lower starting cells), which is seen in both Kai's presentation and stated in a White Labs presentation as I previously mentioned, which seems to indicate pitching multiple smackpacks is not really necessary. After reading through all the info out there on starters, I am convinced that the Kai's calculator is sufficient. I think I would say 5 liters is way overkill, although you will have tons of yeast that you could save for later. This all assumes you have a stir plate that will keep the starter wort very well mixed.