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Scotch Ale missed my numbers

Discussion in 'Beginners Beer Brewing Forum' started by jturman35, Jan 14, 2018.

 

  1. #1
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 14, 2018
    Hey guys I seem to have issues hitting my numbers. I recently brewed 12/29/17 a Old Highland Scotch Ale which shows a OG1.081, I got 1.063. I pulled a sample today 16days later and checked with my refract and got 1.036. This gives me abv of 3.54% not 7.7%. I used WLP028 and made a 1500ml starter. Is it possible this is still fermenting? Fermenter is set at 65 deg. Seems unlikely this will drop to 1.022.

    IMG_0254.jpg
     
  2. #2
    brewing_clown

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Did you adjust the post-fermentation refractometer reading?
     
  3. #3
    phendog

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Using your refractometer during fermentation??? Did you run the conversation for the presence of alcohol?? Refractometers are great during the brew, but during fermentation i switch to a hydrometer, or ensure my refractometer is calibrated and use a conversation calculator like this one: https://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/
     
  4. #4
    kh54s10

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Right, you need to run the FG reading though a calculator to account for the presence of alcohol.

    As far as your OG. Missing that is most often attributed to a poor crush on the grain.
     
  5. #5
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Stupid me! Looks like I got 6.08%. Thanks I didn’t realize I needed to convert. Does this look about right?

    IMG_0416.jpg
     
    brewing_clown likes this.
  6. #6
    RM-MN

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Two thing come to mind. Unless you mill your own grain you are at the mercy of the LHBS as to the mash efficiency you get. The recipe was designed for 75% efficiency, you got much less due to the crush of the grain.

    The second is that your refractometer is a wonderful tool during the brew day but once the beer has started fermenting the presence of alcohol skews the reading. I'd suggest that you use the hydrometer for the final gravity but if you don't have one there are corrections for the refractometer reading that will get you close.
     
    jturman35 likes this.
  7. #7
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Yea I have the Brew Boss system with the COFI filter basket. According to B.B. you don’t need the grain crushed as much as other biab setups. This was my first brew using the new set up.
     
  8. #8
    thehaze

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Try to raise the temp. a bit. The yeast can ferment between 65 and 70F. At higher temps. the yeast will work faster and by increasing the temp. you might encourage the yeast to ferment a bit more. Or not.
     
  9. #9
    RM-MN

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Reading between the lines I think they are really telling you that their system won't tolerate as fine of a crush as a true BIAB can. I would still try to get a better crush than what you had for this batch.
     
  10. #10
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Will crush make me go from 6% to 7.7% ?

    Should I have mashed longer until I hit an OG of 1.081? I have read that conversion takes place in the first 15-30 mins. I just started reading PH and mine was high at 6.2 through the mash cycle. I’m sure this is part of my issue. I just sent my water off to Ward labs to check my mineral content. My next brew I hope to be able to lower my mash ph.
     
  11. #11
    kh54s10

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Jan 15, 2018
    Crush is the most likely to increase your efficiency. Whether you get 7.7% depends on a lot of variables.

    Mashing longer will not necessarily help anything.

    I haven't taken a pH reading yet in my 6 1/2 years. I am not sure how much difference it makes. Not as much as many think, I expect.
     
    jturman35 likes this.
  12. #12
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 16, 2018
    I bumped up my fermenter to 68deg. The sample i pulled was at 64.8 which about where it should be. I also made my first starter for this batch so I was a little discouraged i didnt hit my number. It appears my mash is where i missed it. Looking at Beersmith my BH and Mash efficiency were decent.

    Brew house was 74%
    Mash 79%

    So I’m trying to figure out why I did not come close to 7.7%. Does grain crush play this big of a role?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  13. #13
    kh54s10

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Jan 16, 2018
    Something doesn't seem right. With those efficiencies you should have gotten the right OG. But yes, a poor crush can have that big a role.

    Are you sure that you used the proper amount of grain? That is one way you could have good efficiency and low OG.
     
  14. #14
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Jan 20, 2018
    So here is my water report. Think this will be ok with this Scotch Ale? I believe darker beers benefit more from higher alkaline but calcium seems very low.

    IMG_0424.jpg
     
  15. #15
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 2, 2018
    Ok so I kegged this last Sunday and going to let it sit up and age. FG came in at 1.022 which puts me at 5.4% instead of 7.3% which is a bummer. I missed my OG by 16 points. I’m trying to learn from this.

    I did a Pale Ale using the same LHBS grain crush with the same untreated water profile above and hit my numbers and hit 6.5% abv according to BeerSmith. Is it possible BS is off ? I seem to have a hard time with doing Scotch Ales. My system uses COFI basket from Brew Boss so grain crush shouldn’t be holding me back that much. Would the water profile above cause my mash to have high ph causing poor efficiency?
     
  16. #16
    Northern_Brewer

    British - apparently some US company stole my name

    Posted Feb 2, 2018
    Non-existent more like - and you need calcium in the water for various enzymes to work. Are you doing any water adjustments? A bit of gypsum would work wonders.

    Brewersfriend has eg Edinburgh at

    Ca Mg Na Cl SO4 HCO3
    100 18 20 45 105 235
     
  17. #17
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 3, 2018
    I just started using distilled water and adding salts now. I have a brown ale fermenting as we speak that I adjusted the water on. On this particular Scotch Ale I used my tap water above. I’m trying to understand why abv was so off on one beer verses another. Sounds like the minerals in my mash are causing poor efficiency. I did measure my ph on this beer and was at 6.1 during the mash. I guess I do dint realize my water was holding me back so much.
     
  18. #18
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 3, 2018
    Playing with Brunwater here is where it looks like I went wrong. Keep in mind I DID NOT adjust my water. I inserted my tap water so I could see how bad my tap water was for this profile. Now I feel better about my PH meter which was in the 6.2 range during the mash.

    IMG_0550.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  19. #19
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 13, 2018
    This beer is starting to come around a little. When I think of Scotch Ale I think of alcohol and smooth/sweet. I really like the warm alcohol taste followed by sweet. This has a salty taste could just be the recipe. Definitely missing my OG by 16 points didn’t help. Sucks cause I really like a strong Scotch Ale. Dirty Bastard or Old Chub are my favorites. Oh well! It’s not a dumper it will get drunk! May try the Old Chub Clone a second time. I sure am cursed when it comes to brewing Scotch Ales it seems.

    IMG_0587.jpg
     
  20. #20
    JPBrewLI

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 13, 2018
    How did the first batch taste? which recipe? I just bought my first 6 pack of it and think its one of my new favorites.
     
  21. #21
    RM-MN

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Feb 13, 2018
    If you want this beer to be really smooth, put it away for another 6 months. Darker beers and especially darker with high alcohol take time to mature. The stout I have in my fermenter will be bottled for at least a year before I open one but it is darker than your Scotch ale and the same alcohol content.

    The low efficiency that gave your the low OG is due almost entirely to the milling of the grain. How finely you can mill the grain depends on your ability to separate the wort from the grains. If you mash in a bag, be it in a cooler or in the boil pot you can mill the grain to nearly flour and still separate the grain from the wort and that fine milling will make your mash efficiency go through the roof. You can also raise the mash efficiency by making a thinner mash. It's been proven that thin mashes are at least as efficient as thick ones and in many cases more efficient.
     
  22. #22
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 13, 2018
    My first attempt to brew Old Chub clone was a disaster. I did a smaller batch than I normally do. I scaled the recipe down from 5 to 2.5 gallons using BS. I ended up getting sick during the boil and spilled half gal to a gal on the laundry room floor. I am not sure what the heck happened but the beer ended up like 3.5% alcohol. This was on my old propane burner and is one reason I went all electric. I may try again but this time do a 5 gal batch.


    Here is the thread I did on the Old Chub.
    https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/Where-did-I-go-wrong?.637901/
     
  23. #23
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 13, 2018

    I would if the alcohol was higher. It’s only 5.5% and not really dark for a Scotch Ale. Hell it almost looks like a dark brown ale. I’m going to try doing the Old Chub in the next month or two and store away for next year Oct/ Nov.

    How would you age in a keg? Hit it with 30lbs for 24 hours then store in a closet at 70-75deg?
     
  24. #24
    RM-MN

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Feb 13, 2018
    Think of a keg as an oversize bottle. Carb it, store it warm just like you suggest.
     
  25. #25
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Feb 13, 2018
    Yes but can you store at low carb level? It takes two weeks to carb a keg at 12lbs CO2. I would like to hit the keg for 24 hours at 30psi to seal then move downstairs to age. I don’t have room in my keezer to carb is what I’m getting at.
     
  26. #26
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Mar 18, 2018
    Ok, so I have been sampling this out of the keg since Jan 28th. Almost two months and it has gotten a little better. I’m thinking of bottling so I can free up a keg for a Red Ale. This beer is 5.5% will it get any better with age? I know bigger beers get better but what about a 5.5%??

    IMG_1521392269.940722.jpg
     
  27. #27
    Northern_Brewer

    British - apparently some US company stole my name

    Posted Mar 18, 2018
    It's not so much a question of ABV as a question of the balance of flavours. Very broadly, malt flavours get better with time whereas hop aromas get worse with time (and hop bitterness is kinda in the middle). So if you have a 7% beer that depends on hop aromas (like a NEIPA) then it will get worse with age, but a 7% beer that depends on malt flavours (like something Belgian) then it will get better with age - potentially for a couple of years depending on the beer.

    Yours is kinda strong for a British beer, and I'd guess it would probably have reached its peak in bottle around 4-6 months after brewing if it had been bottled immediately. Generally I think US brewers tend not to fully condition their British-style beers enough. Obviously bottling from a 6-week-open keg is a whole different kettle of fish, but I guess there's no harm in trying, I might add some fresh yeast and a bit of conditioning sugar when bottling just to scavenge any oxygen from it.
     
  28. #28
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Mar 18, 2018
    I’m thinking this would be good practice using my Blinchman beer gun. I have bottled several others from my keg but nothing that I’d like to age this long. I will probably just bottle 15 or so.
     
    RM-MN likes this.
  29. #29
    RM-MN

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Mar 19, 2018
    [QUOTE="jturman35, post: 8252661, member: 245555"]Ok, so I have been sampling this out of the keg since Jan 28th. Almost two months and it has gotten a little better. I’m thinking of bottling so I can free up a keg for a Red Ale. This beer is 5.5% will it get any better with age? I know bigger beers get better but what about a 5.5%??

    View attachment 562583 [/QUOTE]

    Since you are sampling from the keg, I have to assume this keg is being kept cold, serving temperature, not maturing temperature. The cold temps slow down the maturing process and this type of beer will definitely improve with maturity. By all means, bottle this up, store it at room temp for another 2 months and sample again. I'm betting it will be much improved.
     
    jturman35 likes this.
  30. #30
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Mar 21, 2018
    You are correct sir! Keezer is constant 44 degrees. I am impatient as only have three taps. I just ordered two more kegs so I can age future beers at room temperature.
     
  31. #31
    RM-MN

    Supporting Member  

    Posted Mar 22, 2018
    I think you will like the ability to age beers. Now you will have to find out which beers improve with age and how long it takes to reach the peak and which beers you should start drinking the day they are kegged. Hint: Darker beers take longer to mature as do beers higher in alcohol. My stout was still improving when the last bottle was emptied, two years from bottling.
     
  32. #32
    jturman35

    Well-Known Member

    Posted Mar 22, 2018
    Yea I’m gearing up to do a Bourbon County Stout Clone with oak spirals soon!
     
    RM-MN likes this.
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