Removing Hot/Cold break material before fermentation

All -

Started my first pale ale today. Had a good hot break and an good cold break. Chilled the beer down to 70F in ~20min. I had some problems removing the precipitated proteins when transfering the wort to the fermenter. I have an 8 gallon brew pot with a spigot w/ ball valve. I drained the wort from through the spigot through a metal strainer and into my glass carboy. Although the metal strainer removed a lot of material, there is still a considerable amount of trub that has settled to the bottom of the carboy. I've attached a picture of the fermenter. The cloudy top layer is where the yeast in hanging out and you can see the trub at the bottom.

1) Is it necessary to avoid getting so much trub in the fermenter in the future?

2) How can I prevent so much trub from getting into the fermenter?

3) I just pitched the yeast a few hours ago and I have another clean glass 6.5 gallon carboy? Is it worth racking the wort into a clean carboy to reduce the amount of junk settled at the bottom?


Thanks!!!!!

 

When your beer/yeast takes off, all that stuff in there will mix up and then when done, it will compress on the bottom of the fermenter.

I toss ALL that stuff in my fermenters. I don't worry about it. If you want to feel more at peace with that idea, take a look at the brulosophy exbeeriments:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/

and

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

 

Don't stress break material. The only time I worry is on really hoppy brews, only because I want clearance above it for the spigot in my Speidel, it if I'm planning on harvesting or reusing the yeast cake.
I just installed whirlpool arms in both my kettles, but it was more for faster chilling than for break material...

 

Thank you both for the reply!!! The brulosophy exbeeriments were very interesting. For now, I won't worry about the wort trub, but in the future I will attempt to remove more of the wort trub. Unless the beer turns out great, then who knows?!?!?!

Thanks!!!

 

It will probably end up nice if you do the fermentation in a proper manner. One reason to avoid trub is if you re-harvest yeast from the bottom. Another is like Jvin is saying you'd want some clearance to the spigot on your fermenter, if u use a spigot. If you get a good cold break, you can transfer close to no trub into the fermenter by just letting it sit an hour or three before transfering. If you don't get a good cold-break then it will linger forever in the kettle.

 

worry not...like most things in life... it may look bad at first but it will all settle out in the end

 

I do use a homemade hop spider for boil hop additions, as well as a mesh bag for dry hopping.

I also have a metal mesh filter into my kettle valve (bazooka screen). That said, anything that gets past those goes into the fermenter. As mentioned, it will settle and compact before packaging. I would not recommend racking it to another fermenter.

 

Dump everything into the fermentor and let it ride!
RDWAHAHB!

 

I use the bazooka filter in the kettle as well as a filter in my funnel to remove the trub going into the fermenter. I filter so fine that the filter clogs a few times during the drain and I have to rinse it out in starsan. I find it makes for cleaner tasting beers in the long run that are also clearer.

plus remember the deeper that bed in the fermenter when you rack it off, the more beer you leave behind.

 

It honestly doesn't matter, pour all that stuff into the fermenter and let it ride. There are residual sugars and nutrients in that stuff.

 

This. I didn't want to say it in my first post in fear of opening up a pandoras box, but that's my experience too. About the taste. More cleaner tasting beers. Less "mud", more pronounced flavors. Your recipe and process shines through a bit better. I let my beers sit for about 2-3 hours after cooling just to get stuff to drop, because I have no doubt it's worth it.

 

The first part of this is false. Straining will not change the taste. At least in my opinion and experience. If it makes for a clearer beer, again IMO, the difference is minimal.

The second part is true. The more debris in the bottom the more beer you lose in there.

Use a hop spider to contain the hop debris and you will have less of a trub layer in the end.

As to the amount in the picture. That is normal and should compact to 1/2 inch or less when fermentation is done.

Don't worry about it other than losing beer amount.

 

Is Smellyglove a reference to Spinal Tap?
just asking,

It seems as a hobby many go just so far, others go further, I figure as long as it gets me better beer then do it. OK I say it a lot, I am not here for cheap beer, I brew for the best beer I can. I do many steps others claim are not needed, but each seems to improve the final product. Filtering just makes too much sense, it removes what you do not want. If removed it does not affect the beer. So why leave something in that is just to easy to filter or settle out.

 

PS as noted, there are all kinds of opinions, KH seems to think that removing stuff will not effect the taste. in my experience it does.

 

My reply was in reference to my experience. I have strained out the debris sometimes, and it made no difference in taste or clarity. Many if not most, also say don't worry about it - dump everything in.

So I don't strain. YMMV.

 

And I posted that you had your opinion? Are you offended that I pointed out you had a different opinion than me? I never said you were wrong, I only pointed out we had different opinions

this is a hobby, we all have opinions, how you choose to do your beer is your concern, I pointed out we are different, does that offend you?

 

Yes, It's a Spinal Tap reference. I use this nick everywhere I go on the internet, luckily, it's always available.

I agree with you. I guess most of us are in this hobby to make best possible beer. Having "no" trub in the fermenter is, at least for me, one of those things that make better beer. It might make no diffference to one, be nuances to a second person, and a bigger difference to a third person, it depends on your reference-level. Just like with adjusting the water. It's "the dot over the i", as we say where I come from.

 

Love that band, we used to do a version of Big Bottoms on stage. Actually had 3 basses going. Interesting, our drummer never blew up

I agree with the dot

 

As a soundguy three basses going on at the same time, at least if they're pretty similar sound like a tightness-nightmare

 

it is, but it is a direct tribute to the movie

 

Wow! I'm not sure if people are closer to tears or throwing punches!!! My question seems like it boils down to personal preference. I like the bazooka filter and the hops spider. Will have to try those on my next batch. The good news is my yeast is happy, active, and there's a nice krausen forming on the top of the wort!

Thanks everybody! I wish I made enough beer to share with all of you!

 

Actually the trub you leave in the kettle is much looser (containing more wort) than the yeast / trub bed generally, so you'll lose more beer, or potential beer by not transferring.

 

Triple blind testing disagrees with you. But good point on the beer loss.

 

well I am not triple blind

LOL

It is a matter of preference. I do a lot of things to get clear beer, One of my big points about brewing is to get it as professional looking as possible. I get told I am very Anal about it

but that is my issue, not everyone else. do as you please. it is only a hobby

 

I suspect the issue with trub in the fermentor is driven by people selling conical fermentors. Main feature of the conical at homebrew scale is ability to dump the trub and collect cleaner-trub free yeast. At commercial scale advantage of conical is volume of fermenting beer per square feet of brewery floor. Trub and yeast handling are additional benefits (my opinion I am not a commercial brewer). Is this feature a benefit? Well if you are trying to sell the fermentor I imagine to you it is.

 

I can collect cleaner yeast without multiple washes by leaving trub in the kettle. I whirlpool all the time so I can leave both hot and cold break plus hops in the kettle. I can dump and collect my yeast and then dry hop. Super fast and easy. I couldn't tell you if it makes a better beer. When I started brewing I'd transfer far more trub than I do now. But I've learned more and I make better beer than I did when I was beginning. So I really couldn't say it has anything to do with the trub.

I make 1/2 bbl batches and collecting and reusing yeast saves me a lot of money over the long run.

 

The cleaner the liquid entering the fermenter the cleaner and more stable the final product. I go to great lengths to keep trub from carrying over into the fermentation vessel. But, I go to great lengths to produce clean wort as well.
The original idea behind first wort hops was to use an inherent quality in hops which causes hot break to rapidly expand which helps to clean the wort. Hops reduce surface tension, that's why when bittering hops are added the wort level rapidly rises and boils over.
I do this with every batch of beer>The FWH procedure. As soon as the bottom of the boiler is covered with extract it is fired and then, a very small amount of hops are added. As the mixture boils, the hot break that surfaces is skimmed off. Then, more extract is slowly added. The extract is brought back to boiling and the hot break is skimmed off. The process continues; add, boil and skim until the boiler is full. Continue to boil the wort and skim off hot break as it surfaces. Then, after hot break ceases to surface, bittering hops are added. When the hops are added skim off the second break and continue to boil the wort for one hour. Because the wort is clean from the beginning less bittering hops are needed. Basically, FWH allows a larger volume of wort to be ran into the boiler without worrying as much about boil over and that's about it, in my opinion.

An experiment on trub was performed by the IOB many years ago. The experiment was based on yeast reproduction in a batch of beer with trub versus yeast reproduction in beer without trub. What they determined is that there is only a segment in trub that increases yeast reproduction and to filter out the trub to remove the nutrient is cost prohibitive.

When wort lacks nutrients yeast cannibalizes trub to reach the nutrient that it needs for reproduction. Because the yeast used trub for survival an imbalance occurs and basically, yeast becomes senile due to the imbalance. So, when the topic of trub comes up and some brewers add it to the fermenter, it's OK. The wort produced might be lacking in nutrients and the yeast needs the trub for survival. The brewer assumes that the yeast are happy go lucky and cool. If the wort is lacking in nutrients and the trub is removed yeast reproduction suffers. If the wort doesn't lack nutrients and as long as all of the other ducks line up in the wort like sugar balance, pH, protein and the trub is removed the final product will be clean and stable.

The Brul experiment. The final gravity was higher in the trub-less beer because the wort lacked nutrients. Yeast reproduction was negatively impacted. The final gravity would be higher. What occurred is not unusual, krausen would be added when the beer is transferred to the second fermentation vessel. The fresh yeast would finish off the remaining glucose and gravity drops.

I use two stainless conical fermentation vessels. For me, they make things easier and in a way less stressful. I produce beer which requires second fermentation.
I began brewing beer in 1982 and I wish that stainless conical vessels for home brewing were around back them. I would have saved a lot of pain and suffering. In my opinion, they are easy to deal with and they look pretty cool. I have two 42 gallon Blichmann fermenters. The other thing, I am extremely lazy and by nature the lazy will seek out and find the easiest way to accomplish something. Purchasing conical fermenters helped me to achieve the goal.
From an ergonomic stand point, adding leg extensions and wheels saves ones back. Roll'em around. Know kneeling.
From the lazy side of why I use conical tanks; in my opinion they're easier to clean, well not as easy to clean as a bucket but, a bucket is a bucket.
From a brewing stand point the beer is sealed up tight. The vessel can withstand pressure. There is a pressure relief for over pressure protection. I connect a CO2 cylinder to the blow off attachment and use CO2 for purging and during transferring beer to another conical or when kegging to reduce aeration. Basically, they work for me with the way that I brew beer. The other equipment that I used worked too.
Cons: Expensive.

For filtering, I use leaf hops when I brew beer and a hop blocker. After the wort is finished boiling the hops sink to the bottom of the boiler and cover the hop blocker. The wort runs through the hop bed (the chiller pump "pulls" the wort through the bed of hops) and the hops prefilter the wort. The hot wort travels out of the boiler through a Blichmann Hop rocket with three or so ounces of leaf hops in it and into a plate chiller into a pump into a fermenter, chilled. I placed the pump at the end of the line for two reasons. 1. Pressure drop is pressure drop. 2. Chilled wort is going through the pump instead of near boiling wort which keeps the bearings and stuff running cooler.
I purchased the chiller and pump in 2007 and never had any issues with the chiller clogging up or any issues with the pump.

 

With this statement, agree I must.

 

I brewed this weekend with a new (to me) kettle with a 12" bazooka screen in the bottom. I used 1.5 ounces of hop pellets in the kettle w/o using a hop spider, and when I tried to drain the wort the screen clogged up instantly with hops and hot/cold break proteins. I ended up dipping and pouring the wort out of the kettle because the spigot was unusable.

So afterwards I filtered the wort through a 5 gallon paint strainer bag. That got most of the crap out of it. The wort was still cloudy so there is some suspended trub but not much; that will drop out in the fermenter. Next time I will put the paint strainer in the bucket before draining the kettle so I can just lift it out, and the kettle won't have the screen installed so I should be able to use the spigot.

 

I ferment in a bucket. I bought a BIAB bag, and when I transfer to the fermenter, I first sanitize the bag, then I line the bucket with the bag. I pour the wort into the bag lined bucket. Then I slowly pull the bag. Then I spin twist the bag and squeeze a bit. I get very little trub at all in the bucket after that and I get most of the available wort out.

 

That sounds like a good filtering strategy. Has your filter removed any unconverted starch that you know of? I'm having problems with starch after steeping. I'm interested in removing starch from the wort either before or after the boil.

 

All -

Thank you all so much for your input. This forum has added a fullness to my brewing education!!!

I just wanted to let everyone know that the wort trub that I left in my fermenter compressed down pretty well. The krausen has subsided and the specific gravity hasn't been changing, so I went ahead and racked the beer into the secondary fermenter (a 5-gal glass carboy). I had minimal loss, but I can see how my loses would have been less had I not transferred so much wort trub.

I pulled a sample to test. If this beer gets better with age it's going to be amazing! As of today it has a wonderful hop aroma with a polite hop taste (I'm not a huge fan - yet - of very bitter beers) with a refreshing after taste.

Thank you all! I'm sure I'll be back with more questions in the future.

 

A)there's no need to do a secondary on a regular gravity beer, unless you are adding fruit or something, which can be done in primary if you like.
B)it's not a secondary if fermentation is completed already. I suppose one could call it a bright tank... If you use a secondary, you want to do it early, before fermentation is complete. That way, the co2 coming out of the beer will flush the headspace and the remaining fermentation will hopefully scrub the added oxygen exposure.

Not trying to nitpick here or anything, but I am going to guess you will see very diminished hop profile from the added cold side O2 exposure from this. There is truly no reason to transfer a standard gravity pale ale to secondary. It just isn't common practice anymore. I would advise being way less worried about the trub and significantly more worried about coldside O2.

Happy brewing!

 

Yep, for pale ales and IPAs you are doing yourself a disservice. Transferring to a secondary will only waste those valuable hop aromas and expose it to additional oxygen and oxygen is bad. Still, it's gonna make a fine beer. There is almost never a need to use a secondary IMO.

 

I'm fermenting in a bucket for the first time; just a lid sitting on top w/o an airlock. I pitched Sunday morning.

The beer is still covered with a thick layer of Krausen but should be about done (I haven't wanted to disturb it to take a gravity sample.) Shouldn't I transfer to a carboy pretty soon?

 

Leave it alone to 10-14 days after your fermentation started then check the gravity. If it is stable for 36 hours, the same number, bottle it. There is no need to transfer to a carboy at all, unless you are adding something that you don't want in the primary. Long aging is the only time I use a secondary.

 

I'm gonna move this to a new thread so I don't hijack this one.
Can I bottle it straight from the bucket?? (that's what I do when I primary in a carboy; I prime the bottles with sugar) I was planning to fine this with gelatin but not cold-crash it.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7992180#post7992180

(sorry about that)

 

Nah whatever. A bucket with a lid but no airlock is not ideal. Do you have a local brew shop? You can probably just drill that lid you have an install a rubber grommet that will accept an airlock. Total cost 4 dollars. I highly recommend this approach. If you're priming the bottles individually with sugar you *can* bottle from the bucket, but it's not easy unless the bucket has a spigot. What I like to do though is mix up all that sugar you're going to prime with in like 8 ounces of water and bring the sugar/water mix to a boil on the stove top. Then I pour the sugar water mix into my bottling bucket, and then I transfer the beer with a siphon from my fermenting vessel to the bottling bucket. That way the sugar solution gets WELL mixed into the beer. It's less work and more consistent than priming each bottle individually.