PVC Pipe -- Friendly or No?

Hello All,

This is my first post, and you should all be impressed, for in the text below I am courting the Resounding Raspberry, or perhaps even the Glorious Finger of Scorn.

For those who are not against plastic fermenters, is PVC pipe a reasonable material to use? I was at Lowe's on Sunday in the plumbing area. When my eyes fell upon the 8" PVC pipe, I began seeing 48" tall dancing fermenters to hold my 8+ gallon batches.

Is PVC pourous? Does it exude noxious poisons...or even worse bad tasting ones? How about HDPE?

Joe W

 

Most people will advise you to use CPVC instead of PVC PVC is intended for cold water pipes CPVC for hot water. I personally think that 6the only thing wrong with PVC is that it softens up a little in boiling water. Since PVC amd CPVC cost about the same your probably better off going with CPVC

 

I would have to say no. I don't think you will find cpvc in 8" diameters so you are looking at pvc. I also recall this pipe has not having the slickest finish on them so I would question how well it could be cleaned. Second, I think it would be proned to absorbing odor and flavors from batch to batch including the cleaning agents as this would not be an issue for its intended purpose. There is one way to find out for sure.

 

Yeah, I don't think I would try it (for many of the reasons PT mentions), but it might work depending on how you set it up. Temperature shouldn't be an issue in this application, so PVC should be fine as opposed to going with C-PVC.

Edit...btw, HDPE should be fine if you can find that. However, I'm not sure about fermentation dynamics in a pipe. Traditional fermenters tend towards more shallow, open fermenters, while even the more modern conicals aren't super narrow. You might have cannon-like blowoff with a tube!

 

For my very first mash tun, I used pvc as a manifold because I hadn't heard anything that suggested that this may be a bad thing. The first brew I made with it had a slightly "plastic" taste but not like bandaids. Unfortunately, I drank this up like a session beer because of the taste. Now, I have only about 8 of these left, and it tastes amazing - off flavor = gone! So, I think that the off-flavor was this beer's "green" flavor rather than a result of the pvc manifold. I also brewed another beer (a belgian wit) with this setup and this "plasticy" flavor is not present at all, so I don't believe that the pvc gave any off-flavors.

Regardless of this, I switched to cpvc because it is inexpensive and just as simple to use. From personal experience, I see nothing wrong with pvc, but why not use cpvc for the hot water application.

$.02

 

I am kind of entertained, though, by the notion of having a "forest" of fermentation pipes. Maybe it wouldn't work for primary, but do you think it might do for secondary? What if we put in a spigot or something for racking?

I'm not technically-inclined, but I am space-challenged in the apartment, and the thought of being able to tuck those away somewhere, or tape some fake leaves on 'em to "camouflage" them in a room some where... well, it's damn appealing.

 

If I understand what's being suggested, it's just making fermentors which means the temps would be well within bounds for PVC which is supposed to be safe at those temps (it's used for cold water applications). Unless I'm missing something.

 

As a Packaging Engineer I'll tell you that PVC is not FDA approved for direct food contact. It emits off flavors.

 

Then why is it used for drinking water?

 

And what about ABS, the black plastic?

 

My bad. Brainfart.

 

I figured you would say because the water is generally moving through the pipe and with beer it is just sitting there.



Edited to add the missing words. Where did they go?? lol

 

There is some concern that use of PVC for food products will leach the phthlate plasticizers into the food product. I know that there was a serious concern about childrens toys having PVC plasticizers in them, and pretty much all toys have stopped using this additive.

I will say that the intended use for the 8" pipe they sell at a hardware store (especially Lowes), isn't for drinking water. It'll probably say "For Drain, Waste, and Vent use only." That means its for use in sewer pipes. (And my guess is that no one at Lowes buys it for this purpose because I've worked for a plumber doing residential plumbing for a summer job and the biggest pipe I've ever seen used in a residential sewer was 6") This pipe isn't supposed to hold the 60+ psi that is standard in water distribution, but it may also not be rated as safe for drinking water for whatever reason. I've personally seen one too many dirty stick of PVC pipe to ever even consider putting my beer into it...

 

While that 8" pipe may be for waste I know that I've seen PVC installed as water lines in most of the new houses I've seen built lately.

 

Any concerns about the pvc being gas permeable? What about the slightly acidic wort leaching flavors? I also wonder what the yeast would do in a such a tall and narrow container...

5 and 6.5 gal glass carboys can't be much if any more expensive than such a big section of pipe and.. well.. they're proven to work and are not all that hard to hide in a closet, under the sink, or behind the couch. Plus, with glass you get to see all the cool stuff happening in your beer during fermentation.

 

Well, that is true, getting to watch it does appeal to the science nerd in me. But I'll tell you this, the brewer who finds a way to incorporate the carboys into some kind of universally visually pleasing scenario will be a respected man indeed.

 

I think what I was thinking about is there are a lot of recyclability concerns with PVC bottles because they are so often confused with PET due to the clarity of both resins in blow molded bottles. This is obviously not of concern with a fermentor. I can tell you that the food manufacturer that I worked for stayed away from PVC due to the environmental unfriendliness, and it's banned in the majority of Europe for packaging of any kind.

 

Wow. I go away for a few days and come back to a thread full of info. Good stuff!

Some good issues were raised:

• O2 permeability: I don't think there was a final answer here. If PVC is O2 permeable the solution may be to coat the pipe in something that is neither permeable nor likely to contribute to the taste of the beer. Epoxy was mentioned as non-reactive in another thread.
• PVC contributing tastes: this can only be (dis)proven experimentally
• Price - 6.5 gallon carboys are $22 at MoreBeer.com. 10' of 6" PVC pipe from Lowes holds 15 gallons and costs $32. The PVC is the better price per gallon, plus, you can claim its art. I know. I know. I didn't shop around for the carboy, but then I didn't shop around for the PVC either.
• Leaching poisons: I think that plasticizers are only present in flexible PVC, but the point is well taken. There is enough controversy on wikipedia about PVC to make me nervous, but there is more frenzy than fact at the links listed. Once or twice won't kill me (famous last words), plus I have lots of friends.

I think the bottom line is that I am gonna try it, and if I don't die (quickly) I will report back.

jw

 

I've been reading this thread for a few days now . . . and I am still confused. Initially, I thought the thread was about using PVC for a mash tun manifold. I am failing to understand how 6" PVC could replace a carboy as a primary/secondary fermentation vessel. How would this work? What would it look like?

I am much confused . . . .

 

What's being discussed is capping and airlocking a PVC tube and using it as a fermenter.

 

I am confused as to why someone would want to do this. What possible benefits would come from using this method over a regular carboy. It is not like glass carboys or plastic fermenting buckets are expensive or anything. Also, how would one store, clean, and manage such a contraption?

Is this "tube fermented" ale some kind of brew that I am unfamiliar with?

 

It's all discussed in the posts above. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Experimentation is what led to us (homebrewers collectively) doing all-grain batches in chest coolers and converted kegs.

 

Heck, Sonvolt. I don't know why I do half of what I do. Why didn't I marry Laura Harbert back in college? (if you're listening, sorry about that Laura!)

• My curiousity would be assuaged.
• The shape of a carboy disturbs my sense of bliss.
• There is a wall in my soon to be built storage shed to which I would bolt them so all could admire and choose.
• When I am old and grey and tell young whippersnappers like yourself that PVC is a bad idea, they will think me a HomeBrew guru. (A HomeBrewru?)

My thought is to cap them with pvc and stick valves on the bottom to drain off the trub and sample the brew,. Dont forget the hole in the top for a cork or blow off tube.

All ales fermented in this tube, should they prove potable, will be called Big Joe's [beertype]. All lagers will be called Joe Cool's [beertype]. The tube itself will be called Das Brewru. Men will envy me. Women will flock to me (especially Laura). There will be movies, money and homebrew.

Life is good.

"Big" Joe "Cool"

 

i think that ppl get hung up on details and it takes away from their brewing

 

Well to an extent that's certainly true, but on the other hand sometimes the details are a very enjoyable and stimulating part of a hobby like home-brewing. It's the same spirit of tinkering and adventure that leads electronically oriented people to build a laptop in a Batman lunchbox.

Same kind of thing. Consider the "forest" of 5' tall PVC brew-tubes to be just another kind of mod. Especially if they have neon lights on them.

 

'nuff said . . . brew on!!!

 

I was told by a former brewmaster at Labatt's that ABS is inert and in fact the mega brewers were looking in to ABS fermenters and cold storage tanks. The reason the gave up on the idea was cost.

 

so the thread dies without so much as a decision? man i was thinking the same thing and i thought someone had done this and could tell me if it was a good idea.
Properly configured i could have 8 fermentors at a time for about the same space cost as two carboys.

sumta what happened.

 

Most of these people are long since gone from here....

A similar discussion that iirc was a wee bit contentious is here,

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/plastic-pvc-pipe-5-gal-mini-keg-78012/

 

A three year gap between posts? This has gotta be a record.

 

I always find it amazing that some new people on here can dig up ancient threads like this....

and other's can't/won't search, let's say for info on Better bottles vs glass, or whether or not their beer is ruined...


I commend Straydog on his search abilities or his persistence!!!!

 

Good point. Rezzing a dead thread is better than starting the 5,000,000th "OMG DO I DUMP THIS BEER?" panic thread.

/salute Straydog

 

I would think this concept a good one if using the right type of plastic. Probably not as inexpensive but for some space is in higher demand than $$$, right?
I really like the plastic they use in the Coopers fermenters I have. Reminds me of the acid-resistant varieties I used (decades ago) making integrated ciruits for Fairchild.

I think I would want some better way to take off the 'end-caps' tho than try to wrestle a 4-5 foot tall tube filled with wort! Although.. if top bunghole was accessible and it had a spout added and perhaps a floor-drain... hmmm. I could imagine a 'wall' of these things.

Could you envision a room with a brew rig piped to multiple fermenters and auto-magically HERMS batches, filling menu-driven-selected fermenters, transferring select ones to secondaries (after so many days/weeks) and automating all but the adding of ingredients or bottling/kegging the secondaries? Who says this kind of imagining is a bad thing?
Certainly passes the time when waiting for a bus/train/plane!

 

Heh.

But yeah, assuming the PVC or CPVC is determined to be safe, I can imagine an entire garage setup of fermenters. You could set up 5 or so, with airlocks built in, and with holes drilled for spigots. Maybe build a small shelf above that and have another row... We could get really creative with this.

"Oh, of course, Mr. BATF agent. I would -never- brew more than 200 gallons a year. I only use this setup once a year, I swear."

Now if only I owned my house and could actually do things like this.

 

Has anyone actually tried this?

Is there a way to test your beer to see if any of these plastics have been leached into it?

 

PVC is fine for food/water as long as it's at room temperature, but why would you want to use it as a fermentor? Food grade polyethylene buckets are cheap and work great.

Tom

 

CPVC is approved for hot and cold water use in NJ, and not generally accepted here. I was doing commercial new construction plumbing, building a senior housing bldg, and the inspector failed us and shut down the job.

Rigid PVC-SCH 40 can hold pressure, but is not intended for food use.

 

To be able to fit more in a given amount of floor space. Also you could make 6" by 4.5' pipe or a 8" by 2.5' pipe much more attractive looking then a bucket.

I might try looking for HDPE piping rather then PVC just to be on the save side of the leaching plastics.

 

IMHO, it was a stupid idea in 2006 and still is today. I call it opinion longevity.

The surplus of more appropriate and much cheaper options just make it impractical. You can find used/recycled HDPE open and closed head barrels in all kinds of sizes. You can get HDPE buckets from restaurants. You can ferment in Sankees or better bottles or glass.

Even if you discount the 6 or 8" pipe cost (let's say you found some), The price of two end caps ($16/ea) is far more than the cost of a better bottle. The joint where you'd cement them together is also a great spot for bugs to thrive.

 

what about the ideal height to width ratio for a fermenter? Isn't a narrow column going to create a lot of pressure on the yeast?

Linc