Other people's recipes in competitions

How do people view competing with recipes they didn't come up with? If a recipe is posted online and is used in a competition is this acceptable or in the nature of the competition?

I suppose with tools like Brewsmith the recipe formulation is not as easy as going through and actually brewing. Is there a 50/50 balance or so between needing a good recipe and having a good process? Where do you think the core of competition lies?

 

Terrible form IMO

Part of being a brewer is the ability to formulate a recipe unique to your skills. This does not mean the recipe you create has never been made before as I am sure even with the infinite variables at least two people have unknowingly designed the same recipe, but to knowingly go in with anothers recipe in unmodified state is disingenuous at best

 

Yeah I'm certain people have crossed paths on recipes accidentally. If we're all hovering around the Platonic ideal of what a stout or pale ale or lager should be then we're bound to bump into one another at some point. Especially with SMaSH brews.

 

The recipe is only a small, but important, part of making great beer. If you think two brewers making the same recipe will end up with the same beer....probably not going to happen. I know some of the Gold Medal winners from the NHC have used Jamil's recipes either outright or with subtle tweaks.

 

I think that brewing someone else's recipe and claiming that it is your own original is theft.

I think that brewing someone else's recipe and entering it is fine, as long as you do not claim that it is your own recipe. Process is the lion's share of any beer.

 

IMO and in speaking with others that regularly enter comps, the feeling I get is that if you have contact with the person that put together the recipe it is good form to ask if they mind its submittal and you respect their wishes.

The core of the competition is who actually brewed the best beer for the represented style regardless of the recipe used.

I have entered recipes I brewed either exactly as it was given to me or with a few tweaks and I have never had a fellow brewer ask me not to use their recipe. In fact, many are flattered that you enjoyed their beer that much and it turned out that well that it is deemed comp material.

The reality is that if you create a recipe and share it then you put it out there for others to brew and do as they please. If you don't want it shared and used then keep it to yourself Kind of like social media- if you post a pic on FB, don't be pissed off that it showed up in 14 million places.

 

I believe the West Coast Blaster out of Brewing Classic Styles won a gold medal at the National Homebrew Competition this year. My point is that the recipe is only one part of equation. Think of how many people have brewed that same recipe, but only one person brewed it well enough to win a gold.

 

I think it totally depends on what you want to get out of the competitions. If you're brewing to win and using someone else's recipe some people might frown upon that. However, if your brewing to brew beer and want to enter a competition to get some non-biased notes on how to improve your process then I think you should be able to use whatever you want.

I personally don't care what you do but if I entered a beer in a competition I would want it to be one of my own.

 

People buy kits all the time and enter them into comps. Is that really bad form? When you buy a kit you are using someone else's recipe, when people post their recipe on a forum I would think they would know people will brew it and if it turns out well they would enter it. I don't see how that is bad because it's not really the recipe that makes good beer, it's the brewer. All of my recipes are my own and I give them to other people that might even compete against me, if they brewed it better then they deserve to win.

 

Brewing competitions are just that: showcasing your ability to reproduce a style of beer. It's not a recipe designing competition, it's a brewing execution competition.

As stated previously, recipe is but one of many factors that influence judging.

I personally brew/enter original recipes, but there is nothing wrong with brewing a recipe you find on the internet and entering it into a competition. Hell, there's only so many ways to formulate a dry stout -- after that it's a matter of the individual's skills as a brewer, and that's what competitions are all about in my opinion.

 

My opinion is just that and he asked for opinion so as subjective as it is...yes I think kit brewing in competitions is poor form as well and would not do it or consider it. I would also think less of a winner on a kit than an original recipe.

Again just my opinion, it is not the be all end all answer.

 

If we all got the exact same extract kit, we will all have different beers. It would however be polite/in good form to let the brewer know his recipe won a style/comp.

 

recipes -- that is, ingredient lists -- are not nearly as important as people think they are.

 

I don't enter competitions, but I would have no issue using someone else's recipe. I would credit them with it, but also note who brewed it. In other words, I'd call the beer "Yooper's House Ale, By Labrat Brewery". The idea being if its great Yooper should get some credit, and if it sucks, then they'd know she didn't brew it. Even recipes I have "created" undoubtedly have been brewed before by someone.

 

US COPYRIGHT LAW:

"Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions. Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook."

I know that a beer receipe is more than just a listing of ingredients but I just posted that to reiterate the point that there's more to making something (food, beer, wine, etc) than the formula. Even the gov't recognizes that. If you found the best recipe in the world you still need some brewing skills to make it into a gold medal beer. And just because you follow a recipe EXACTLY does not mean that you'll get the same results. The quality of ingredients vary's too.

 

This.

Water is ~95% of the beer and water profile makes a huge difference in the finished product

Couple that with yeast management, fermentation temps, different hop crops, grain crops, ingredient freshness, fermentation time, post-fermentation process, etc. and it is safe to say that a list of ingredients is pretty minor for the outcome. Give ten brewers the same recipe and you'll wind up with ten different beers.

 

This. It's not a recipe competition.

Even if you copy a recipe, you are probably using a different brand of base malt, and your water is different among other things..

 

I suspect that this depends on the competition. You aren't going to find yourself in the final round of the NHBC without great technique. At that point, it probably actually comes down to that extra 4 ounces of biscuit that you threw in, or to your exact temperature control schedule.

At a local competition, many of us are just entering to see how we are progressing as brewers. You will probably beat my beer by using pure oxygen and a fermentation chamber rather than shaking the carboy and using a swamp cooler.

Jamil talks somewhere on one of his shows about having people tell him that they won a competition with his recipe. He thanks them for the compliment, and then congratulates them for having great technique. So he apparently doesn't mind.

 

and to take one step further.....I wonder how many commercial breweries merely brew "clones" of other successful breweries beers? If your brewery wants to brew a Double IPA AND make it a commercial success why wouldn't you try to take a well known DIPA and work off of that? Especially since it is generally agreed that the brewers skill has more to do with making a great beer than does a great recipe.

 

OK I can concede that the brewer and brewing aspect as well as water is a larger part of the final product than the actual recipe.

I just know that I myself would not feel as accomplished if I copied anothers recipe and won a prize. Granted most contests don't worry about who, how or when the recipe came into play unless they are specific that it has to be a unique to you recipe.

On that note I would see it the same if I were to brew Jamils recipe (for argument) for profit if I took it as it was written and merely reproduced it. To put perspective on it I was a photographer for years and made it my hobby as well as my living, if someone were to take a photo of mine whether personal or once published and merely used it as their own I would not look at it in the best light even though they re-edited the image to their style...it is still my image. People spend a lot of time perfecting recipes the same as any other art form so why would it be ok on that end for me to directly copy it for profit?

Again it is just my opinion and my conscience would not let me do that without some compensation or acknowledgement going to the original creator as well as permission for use being asked initially before using it.

 

Exactly.

Missing a strike temp by one degree is technically a variation on a recipe. Hitting 70% efficiency instead of 74% is a variation. How many ingredients really go into making a classic dry stout?

All my medals (including two silvers this past weekend...thank you very much) have come from my own original recipes.

That said, I have no problem with the folks who have entered my recipes and won medals in contests.

 

Your goal should be to enter the best beer you can make, regardless of where the recipe comes from. I think it would be ridiculous to change a recipe just for the sake of changing it.

 

Jamil himself has commented on this (either CYBI or Brew Strong, don't remember), that you should probably throw a credit to the recipe creator (someone did that in their 2012 winning entry), but anyone who has brewed a single batch knows it's 90% (or more) the process.

 

I would say that posting your recipe online gives implicit permission for anyone to use that recipe, including entering it into any competition

if you don't want yours used, don't post it.

 

You have recipes?

 

I have entered and will continue to enter other peoples recipes in competitions, as is or with tweaks.

I am a relatively novice brewer(20-30 batches under my belt) and I would much rather drink a "good recipe" while I am dialing in my proccess than a bad recipe. Also, if it's a known good recipe and the beer turns out poorly, I know my process is to blame.

I am and will continue to make recipes more my own, and eventually make recipes from scratch, if thats even possible....there are really only so many ways to craft a recipe for a given style. In the meantime, I like to compete and the beers I have on hand that I can enter are not my sole recipe.

As for intellectual property, using a publically available recipe is hardly infringing on anyones ideas or creations. Further, I have no problem giving credit where credit is do, and my peers can decide what was more important, the recipe or the brewer.

 

I agree it's good form to give a nod to the recipe creator if you're entering their recipe. But nothing wrong with entering someone else's recipe in and of itself.

The problem with your photography example is that a) photographs, unlike recipes, can be copyrighted, and b) that'd be like taking a keg of commercial beer, degassing it, and then playing around with it and calling it your own. A more relevant example would be if someone took your photo, then went to the same spot, and tried to take the same photo. Even if they used the exact same equipment, it's going to be a little different due to a bunch of factors, just like two identical recipes will be different.

 

When you publish a photo, that photo can be copied. That's copyright infringement. When you brew a beer that beer cannot be copied exactly. Someone can attempt to clone it but that does not mean they will brew the exact same beer as you. If you publish your recipe you have given tacit permission for your beer to be brewed using your recipe. If I published a beer recipe, I imagine I would be pleased to have someone win a competition with it. Why publish a recipe if you don't want it used?