Lager Bottling Temp

Got a question about bottling a lager after primary ferm and secondary. I have an Oktoberfest Lager that I plan on doing. This will be the first try with a lager. Let me know your thoughts:

Midwest Oktoberfest Kit
Wyeast 2633 yeast

Have a fridge set up for 50 degrees fermentation for 6 weeks.

After that racking to a better bottle and storing in the fridge and slowly pulling the temp down each day until I can get it about 36-40.

Letting it sit in the fridge there about 12 weeks then bottling. And letting it sit in the bottle about 4 weeks or so.

Two Questions:

is after i bottle it, do I need to store it at the same temp recommended for fermentation or is warmer temps better for bottling?

Are my times too long for fermentation or lagering?

 

I'd encourage you to go read this:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

He does an EXCELLENT job laying it all out there...

 

I've tried to bottle conditioned a couple batches of lager. I started with 50 degrees, did almost nothing. Had to bump the t-stat up to room temps before it would carbonate. I believe this was post cold conditioned so it may have been different if I bottled after primary.

 

you can have trouble with carbing if you don't pitch a bit of yeast (again, from the article). It doesn't matter if it's ale or lager since the flavor profile is established. Just like your primary fermentation temps, the lower the temp, the slower the ferment (slower the carbing effect). Putting a lager at room temp to carb up is perfectly fine.

 

I have read that most people recommend to add 1/4 to 1/2 packet of dry yeast to the bottling bucket with the priming sugar to get carbination going once in the bottle or it would take longer to carb.

Am I about right on the fermenation time and lager time? From what I have read, including the article the fermentation should take anywhere from 4-8 weeks, depending on oxygen when pitched. Basically i am looking for no airlock activity and also checking hydro ready about 3 days in a row to get a stable reading?

 

Six weeks in the primary won't do anything for you. You should do a d-rest when your beer is 6-8 point above FG (d-rest at 1.020 is a good rule of thumb). I started my d-rest today for a lager fermenting with s-23 that was started this past Saturday (five days). I'll check the gravity on Saturday and likely rack it and start taking the temp down.

I was at the Weihenstephan brewery (world's oldest brewery with several commonly used yeast varieties that bear its name) last Sept and did a a tour where I was lucky enough to talk to one of the brewers for quite awhile. He told me their lagers ferment at 10 celcius for 5 to 6 days (ales at 20 degrees for 3 days) then are cold-stored for 3-4 weeks (ales 2 weeks).

I would say your plan is good insofar as it demonstrates great patience. I'm just not sure you will get much benefit to the extra time taken--you could do at least two lagers in the time you are planning to do one. So if you are doing your Oktoberfest to hit late Sept, you have time to do something else first IMO.

Here's what I would be thinking in terms of a timeline:

May 1--brew & pitch yeast
May 15--d-rest (could be sooner depending on how quickly your fermentation goes)
May 16--begin taking beer down to lagering temp
May 23--begin lagering
June 23--bottle

June 23--begin Oktoberfest--timeline should be very good to hit late September

I failed at some early lagers by not pitching enough yeast. If this is your first lager you might consider two packs of dry yeast. Otherwise be sure to consult Mr. Malty for proper starter size. You will need something very big at 50 degrees so I would suggest you plan to let your starter ferment out then decant and pitch rather than dumping four or five litres of starter into your wort.

 

@ osagedr... good synopsis.

@ the OP... as you stated, there are variables that determine fermentation timeline. If you do everything correctly, then the fermentation could be done as soon as 1 week (most like to leave it at least 2 weeks since often we're not perfect). You just need the d-rest, then crash.

 

I'm doing my first lager too. When I go to bottle the lager, do I bottle it at the temp I was lagering at (37°) or do I let it warm up? I'm assuming I bottle it at 37° and then leave the bottles at 70° to condition.

Do I need to use less dextrose? I pitched at around 50°, primaried for 3 weeks, 2-day D-rest at 63°, and I'm 4 weeks into a 37° lagering period (4 more weeks to go).

 

After that long the few yeast that are left are not very viable. Fermentis recomends 2.5 g/hl to 5.0 g/hl in bottle-conditioning. That's not anywhere near 1/3 package. For five gallons it's .5-1 gram. I just sprinkle in a gram or two as it racks (only half survive re-hydration.)

 

I'd let your beer get back to ~ 60F, like Yooper mentioned. That's how I do it too.

 

I looked at Mr. Malty for the proper size. To be truthful, I don't really trust myself making a starter, don't think I'm experienced enough and don't truelly know how much DME to mix per usage.

But after calculating it up (keep in mind this was originally going to use Wyeast Smake Pack), Mr. Malty was listing that I needed a 5L starter for a 5 gallon batch at SG of 1.064. That's almost 1 1/2 gallon starter???? I am correctly doing this?

Also if I were to use the smack pack idea, Mr. Malty listed 4.3 packs to be used without a starter. Is the smack pack activated a couple of days before brew considered a starter since it is already working once you pitch?

 

Starters are nothing to fear... do a search to learn more and get into it. you'll be fine.

Mr Malty has a drop down menu for simple starter, simple w/ O2, intermittent shaking, continuos aeration and stir plate. Simple means you make the wort, dump the yeast in and leave it til done (requires the most yeast dumped in and/or the largest starter volume). Stir plate requires the least yeast and/or smallest starter. My guess is that you could easily shake intermittently (most just shake it every time they walk by). Lastly, remember, you aren't going to pitch the whole 1.5 gal into your wort, simply going to cras the yeast (so the yeast settles out) and decant most of the liquid off the yeast. The calc says 1.5 gal because you need that much wort to grow the yeast.

The calc says 4.3 packs because that number has the same amount of yeast cells already in it that equals your 1.5 gal starter. The smack packs are not a starter, they are an activator. Basically, the nutrient smack pack simply gets the yeast active before pitching. You should be smacking ~ 4 hours before pitching.

 

I haven't used dry yeast that much, but since it was recommended to do two packets, on this thread and by Mr. Malty, is it best to make the yeast cream with water first or just toss on top of the wort at the right temp then aerate?

 

For dry yeast I follow the instructions on the Fermentis product sheets for W34/70 and S-23 (http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Saflager_W-3470_HB.pdf): I sprinkle the yeast on 10 times its weight of water (so 230 ml or about 8 oz for 23 g of yeast (two 11.5g packs) at 23 degrees C (+/- 3 degrees), wait about half an hour until some/most/all has sunk into the water & created a "cream", then mix well and pitch. Truth be told I think you would be fine sprinkling then aerating, or aerating then sprinkling.

What I like about dry yeast, especially for people who haven't done many lagers, is that you pretty much know you are pitching enough yeast. Not like liquid is that hard to do, but compared to half an hour to rehydrate and pitch dry yeast, the prospect of fermenting out a 5 litre starter, decanting, and pitching is a lot of trouble. Or pitching a 5 litre starter into a 19 litre batch...just doesn't seem right. With the dry yeast you can push the temps down to near the bottom of the fermentation range and not worry about fermentation never really getting started or encountering the 1.020 curse.

Big fan of dry lager yeast...can you tell? At some point I'll move to liquid just to change up some flavour profiles, etc. but my perspective right now is that I have so much flexibility with hops and malts that it's gonna be awhile before I get bored and fool around too much with yeast. On the other hand, my LHBS doesn't carry dry 34/70 (but at least now carries s-23) so in order to use 34/70 I use washed yeast with a starter (decant and pitch). So I may as well be using liquid!

 

Another newbie question (sorry for so many), but I thought I had read that beer actually ages better in the bottle than it does in a secondary.

Is there truth to this? (Can't remember where I saw it)

But if it is I am thinking about making the Oktoberfest here soon and just letting it sit in the bottle until Sept-Oct.

 

I like to bottle when it's bright and lager in the bottles until it's brilliant (if not kegging). In can be done in under six weeks. Pros use wood chips and other finings and then filter to get it to brilliant faster.