IPA Recipe - Too much crystal?

I've been tweaking a Bass IPA clone recipe and have come up with this:

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: English IPA/ESB
Author: Thunder Chicken

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (ESB)
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 1.5 gallons
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 5.72%
IBU (tinseth): 36.09
SRM (morey): 9.69

FERMENTABLES:
0.5 lb - United Kingdom - Crystal 50L (12.5%)
0.5 lb - United Kingdom - Pale 2-Row (12.5%)
3 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Light (75%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Fuggles for 45 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.8, IBU: 10.61)
0.5 oz - Kent Goldings for 45 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 5.8, IBU: 12.82)
0.5 oz - Fuggles for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 4.8, IBU: 5.73)
0.5 oz - Kent Goldings for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 5.8, IBU: 6.93)

MASH STEPS:
1) Infusion, Temp: 153 F, Time: 30 min, Amount: 6 qt

I've read in several places that lots of Crystal is bad, but no one quantifies how much is "lots" or why in particular it is bad. My understanding is that it is what contributes a lot of the color and head-forming proteins.

So how much Crystal is too much and what problems does it cause?

 

I personally don't like to put in much more than 5% myself. I think much over that starts to dominate the flavor pretty quickly. Just my opinion

 

OK then, I probably want to scale that back a bit as I'm not looking to make malt soda. So that would tend to push it into more a brown ale sort of beer?

What does 2-row do for the beer with regard to flavor, body, etc.?

 

Does using a higher attenuation yeast like Nottingham help knock down the crystal sweetness, or is there a flavor element to crystal that is independent of the sugar in the malt?

 

Crystal malts add unfermentable sugars (dextrins) which contribute to body and residual sweetness. A higher AA yeast will dry out the beer, but it still won't be able to ferment the dextrins from crystal.

Also, 2-row is a base malt and needs to be mashed. So you don't want to steep it unless you want a starchy/cloudy beer.

 

OK - good to know.

Could you explain this in a little more detail? What exactly is different between mashing and steeping (other than the water amounts)? What happens in mashing that does not happen in steeping?

For that matter, why does this recipe have 2-row at all? If it is a base malt, what is the point of having a little of it and a lot of DME? Texture?

 

Mashing is putting the grain into water and holding it at a certain temperature for a certain length of time. The temperature window is fairly tight, and well below boiling. Steeping is more like making tea. Mashing allows the diastatic enzymes in the pale male to activate and convert the starches in the grain to fermentable sugars. The reason that certain specialty malts can be steeped is because those sugars are already converted by the maltster or they simply have no sugar left to speak of (i.e. roasted).

It probably shouldn't have 2-row if it's a straight extract batch. You definitely don't want to just steep it.

 

I used 12.9% C-40 in my Fashionably Late PA (hop-bursted) and it's fantastic. Of course, my mashing technique yields a highly fermentable wort and the beer comes out very dry. Still, I rarely have issues with cloying taste.

 

Well, I already pulled the trigger on this batch and steeped all the grains including the two-row. So from what you are telling me steeping probably extracted starches from the two-row but probably didn't do such a hot job of converting them to sugars?

It may not be fatal in this batch since most of the sugar comes from DME and crystal. My OG was on target, slightly high actually. So I may wind up with a sweetish, malty, starchy beer. Oh well, beer happens. This is my first non-kit recipe and I'm learning a lot.

 

If you can't mash yet, next time try steeping the grains at 156 and let the temp fall into the upper-mid 140's throughout the steeping (over 20+ minutes). You could probably just remove from heat during steeping. I can tell you from experience that you won't denature beta amylase at 156 for a few minutes with a gradual temp drop. In fact, I can hold 156-158 for an hour and gradually drop thereafter and still get great attenuation the longer I let it go.

 

This is essentially what I did. I put the crystal and 2-row in a nylon steeping bag, heated 6 quarts of water to ~160F, put the bag in (which dropped the temperature to about 155F) and I shut off the heat, put the lid, and just gave it an occasional stir and a little flame every few minutes to hold about 155F. I steeped for 30 minutes, pulled out and squeezed the grain bag dry, and then boiled for an hour and did the hop and irish moss additions. It boiled down to 4 quarts. I cooled it in a snow/water bath to ~80F within about 10 minutes.

I reconstituted the DME in another pot with 6 quarts of water, just boiling it long enough to sanitize it. I cooled that down, and then I dumped both pots (10 quarts = 2.5 gallons) into the fermenter and pitched the yeast.

 

I balance the amount of crystal not against the grain bill, but against the IBUs.

The more bitter, the more crystal.

In a 5 gallon IIPA (bitter as HELL) I have put 2 lbs of crystal, making almost 18% of the bill and it has been really well recieved. No one dreamed that it was too sweet.

 

Yep, like I said, in an IIPA/IPA/PA you can get away with a lot if the hop presence is strong

 

Congrats, you basically mashed the grain. If you do more (or all) grain, get a larger bag, ie. a BIAB-size bag (5g paint strainer from Home Depot), "steep" it for 60m at specific temp (depending on how dry or malty you want the beer) and you're doing all-grain.

 

My hop schedule gives me 36 IBUs (it is probably a shade less than this because I reserved a few pellets of each hop for dry hopping). My OG was 1.062. Per this chart that puts me in the 'slightly hoppy' regime. The small reserve for dryhopping might push me a bit to the left into 'balanced'.



So hopefully things aren't too out of whack.

 

Nope! You are fine, I just wanted to point out (sorry I missed your post tre9er) that % of grain bill is only one measurement, and can actually be meaningless and should be thrown out in a REAL bitter IPA.

 

I did an all-grain mash for a 1-gallon IPA kit. I'm restricted in my batch size due to my stove, so I don't know how well I could manage an all-grain for a 2.5 gallon batch. I was running out of pot room as it was, but it worked nicely. I'm not even sure what I'd call this brewing technique - partial extract/partial mash BIAB method?

 

I've got a nice krausen forming now. I gave the airlock a sniff and what hits my nose is hops, not a yeasty or malty smell at all.

 

Partial mash, yep.

 

Cool! Now it sounds almost like I have half a clue!

Seems like this batch is on track to make a reasonable beer of some fashion. I'll have to wait to give it a taste to see if it is going where I want it to go and adjust my next batch accordingly.

I'm still waiting to get my pipeline primed so I am exploring different commercial beers for taste interests. I've actually been in a rut style wise, just going to old standbys that I enjoy like Bass, Smithwicks, Guiness.. I am working through a sixer of Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPA that I am enjoying. My next batch I might really try to hop up, but I like UK styles quite a bit. And ethanol - I like ethanol in my beers.

Thanks for all the feedback!

 

Get software. It helps. You can do whatever you want if you have software. Then take recipes from here (the ones with the most comments and/or ratings) and tweak them to what you have, trying to keep the IBUs and OG similar or the same. You can make great pale ales with just some 2-row, some crystal, and one hop. Dry-hop for extra aroma (can do it in primary, even).

 

I'll pitch my remaining hops when the yeast cool down a bit. They are in high krausen and are happily making ethanol for me, so I don't want to interrupt.

I've been working with the Brewer's Friend calculator (http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/) which seems pretty robust. I'm an engineer with a PhD and am not afraid of math or spreadsheets. Are there any open-sourced calculators? I'm curious to dig into how to tweak my brews, once I know what a certain IBU feels to the tongue or an SRM looks like to the eye.

 

There are a number of relevant equations in John palmer's 'How to Brew' as well as his free website (google 'Palmer how to brew')

 

Brew Target is open source software and works on multiple platforms.

 

Thanks for the leads! Brewing is one of those things - I don't know if I want to make an science out of it, or leave it as an art. I think the Trappists had it right in leaving it to God, or at least Nature.

 

I hear ya. I'm a scientist and brewing is an awesome craft for me. it is something I can do that yields tasty results that I don't have to completely obsess over ... But I still can't help but slowly and surely drift further and further into geeking out about it

 

That is the coolest part about homebrewing - the art. There is a difference between the science and the art that will persist without the experience of the world. i.e. yeah, I've had a few.

 

I use a spreadsheet that was given to me by my neighbor and long-time brewer, who got it from someone else, etc. It works for me, although it doesn't have scaling options and such, but I understand how to scale recipes anyway so it's not a big deal. It takes some hunting around to figure out what's what, but once you get it it's highly flexible.

 

It's a week into primary now. I pulled a SG sample and it is at FG now. Taste was somewhat neutral - not sweet, not bitter. The hop nose it had going into the primary has shifted to a slightly malty aroma. I tossed in my reserve of hop pellets to dry hop it a bit. I'm going to let it go for another week and then I'll look at bottling it.

I think through the rest of the process I'd like to do things that would push toward a drier beer. Carbonation would tend to add some bitterness (carbonic acid), right? Would priming with honey or sugar (table or other) would tend to accentuate dry?

 

I think your "mash" process held near 155 also added to the FG/maltiness. Lowering that to 152 or so next time would push you drier. Crystal malt not only has fermentables, but it's been shown to even be able to convert itself, despite popular belief that it's all dextrins and no enzymes.

 

I'll explore this next time around. I'm curious as to how this particular beer will turn out. The sample was extremely smooth, no real hop bite. I'm going to deliberately play with different CO2 volumes when priming and with serving temperatures to see how that will influence the experience.

 

what was the FG?

 

Target FG was 1.017, measured 1.018 today.

 

Interesting, how long has it been fermenting, just a week or so now? What yeast and what were the fermentation conditions (temps at various times)?

That grain bill should still yield a lower gravity, I would think, depending on the yeast. Might be worth letting it go a while, perhaps give the vessel a swirl.

 

It's been in just 7 days. Yeast is Danstar Windsor Ale Yeast, 72% attenuation average indicated in the beer recipe calculator. Had a nice big krausen and bubbled away merrily for a few days. Today there are a few stray floating flocs but otherwise the krausen has fallen.

Temps were between 65-68F pretty consistently through the week. The fermenter is in our kitchen and the thermostat is pretty solid. I left the spirit thermometer on the fermenter and checked it occaisionally.

I could give it a bit of a shake and put it in a slightly warmer area to finish out the primary. A little warmer conditioning temperature won't hurt it now I think.

 

Yeah, considering 65-68 ambient temps, chances are the beer itself got into the 70's at some point and might have thrown off some flavors. Of course, letting it clean up after itself should help. If you have a heat register somewhere, move it closer, but not right next to it. I wouldn't let the beer get much above say 72, but that should be good.

 

I expect that the gravity will move a few more points. There are some minor bubbles on the surface of the beer.

 

Just a quick follow up on this recipe. Cracked my first one today, about 2.5 weeks in the bottle. Still young, but good. The balance is strange - as you drink it your sense is "Whoa, a bit malty" which then swings to "Whoa, a bit bitter". It will mellow out nicely I think, but is probably going to age toward the malty side.

I have a very similar batch in the primary now, only difference is that I used Nottingham vs. Windsor yeast, so it ought to attenuate out a bit more. I think that a change in the direction that I want it to go.

 

How long did you boil the hops? The recipe says 45 min, but one of your posts says you just boiled long enough to sanitize.