Ice to chill wort?

I just read that it is bad to chill your wort using ice. I normally add a little bit of water to get my AG batch to the right volume, but I thought ice would be a good idea instead, since it would cool the wort as well. Could someone tell me why I shouldn't use ice?

Thanks!

 

I'm not a big fan of putting ice in my fermenter unless I made it myself in a sanitized container (like a gallon milk jug); there is no gaurantee that the ice bags bought at the store are sanitized...the ice might be, but who knows about the plastic bags, and some of those bags get torn loading and un loading in those machines, so who knows whose grubby hands went in and out of there.

 

as long as you pre-boiled that water, and froze it in a way that kept it sanitary, then its fine.

anything short of the above steps is increasing the risk for infection.

 

If you used a gallon milk jug, how would you get the ice out of it? Cut away the plastic? I was thinking sanitizing some 1 gallon glad bags and then freezing those might work, or maybe some large tupperware (like a big cube).

 

Yes, cut away the plastic. I've frozen 1 gallon zippies for other things, they work fine as well.

 

It's a gamble,

People add straight tap water to the fermenter to top off and all is well, but if you have bad water you'll have bad beer.

 

I dont think there would be bacteria contamination. Mainly because that ice is so cold that it is not in the temperature dangerzone. I say try it. I know in many a resturants i worked in we used a paddle like device that we would freeze to shock cold soups. it was washed but never sanitized.

 

Freezing won't kill bacteria. Anything that touches wort post-boil should be as sanitary as possible.

 

YUP!!!!

(darn ten letters)

 

Back in my extract days I'd preboil a gallon of water and sanitize any old throw away tupperware like chinese food soup containers, cool whip, etc as long as it was tapered from top to bottom. Fill them, freeze, then pop it out into the wort. When I finally got my fermentation fridge, I'd skip all that and simply chill down the entire volume of topoff water to about 40F.

 

pre boil water, cool, add to a ziplock bag, freeze. When its time to cool... use your chiller to get it as far down as possible then drop in the ice. Voila!

Oh... be real careful using milk jugs for your brew. If you don't clean it out REAL good you're almost guaranteed to have a lactobacillus infection.

 

I still do this exact process. I use the disposable ziploc containers. They are a good size, are tapered, and you can get lots of them for cheap. Plus, the plastic is soft enough that its still really easy to get the ice out after its expanded. Something that is not true for all tupperware.

 

if you buy bottle water, can't you just put it in the freezer until near frozen, or do the same thing with sanitized water bottles? You can probably just stick it in the freezer for about 4-5 hours and then pour it into the wort. I think may be easier than trying to cut the bottle? I suppose one bottle may not be enough to lower the temperature and may be the only draw back.

 

Bacteria contamination comes from the temperatur dangerzone. So boiling water & then cooling it you can still get bacteria. Plus boiling doesnt kill bacteria. It only weakens it. In most states the health department & probally the FDA regulates companies that make ICE. I would say that is safer then the old zip lock in your freezer, Unless you go from boiling water to rapid FREEZing. I say use common sense. I mean when goto the local brewpub. these guys arent wearing tyvax suits like when u goto a pig farm or chicken farm.

 

Zombie thread resurrection warning

I did this very thing the other month with my saison .... but instead of one gallon of spring water ... I used 3 gallons straight into the kettle while it was sitting in an icewater bath (freezer packs in tap water). Seemed to bring the temp down to pitching very quick. I'd say at least as quick if not quicker than a counterflow

 

anyone ever heard of latent heat of fusion of ice??

 

Sorry ... not big into physics ..... dya wanna dumb it down for the likes of me?

 

bump on the latent heat of fusion of ice

 

i haven't either, and i scored 138 on the stanford-binet. lack of education on a certain topic is not necessarily a sign of drooling (or being an engineer)

 

Is this one of those Kompella or LaSerre things?

 

It takes much more energy to go from 0*C to 1*C (frozen to unfrozen) than it does to go from 1*C to 2*C (unfrozen remains unfrozen)

Isn't this taught in HS physics/chem classes BTW?

 

I'm sure it is taught in HS physics. Of course I went to a secondary school in the UK and physics was an elective.


So I'll try to reword the question. What does this have to do with cooling down wort? i.e. Is there a negative effect of using ice and/or icewater directly in the wort?

Thanks

 

You mean besides infection risk??? I would think that is a big enough drawback.

 

Apart from the risk of infection. If the containers themselves are sanitized and the ice water has been previously boiled in order to mitigate the risk of infection.

Are there any negative effects of essentially flash cooling the wort?

Or am I the only once crazy enough to attempt it?

 

You mean other than Alton brown and hundreds of brewers who saw the episode where he did it? Or read about it in early books. You're not breaking any new ground here. It's been done for years, probably up until the brewer gets his first infection, or finds out a wort chiller is more effective.

 

I didn't think I was breaking any new ground. Sorry mate I didn't see Alton Brown do it ... generally I don't watch TV. It was simply a question.

Calm down ... have a beer and a bacon samwich .... perhaps take the dog for a walk.

 

Why do you think I'm not calm...it's just seemed, by what you posted, like you thought you'd be the first to try it. Some folks actually believe that they are inventing something new just because they never heard about something before. And you wouldn't be the first one on here believing about adding ice. Just pointing out some facts to you....

This is what you wrote after all,

seemed to me like you thought you were some brewing daredevil or something.

Maybe it's you who needs a sandwich.

 

I freeze RO water in sanitized plastic Ziploc tupperware containers (which I use just for that) 750 ml at a time, 4 of them. That gives me almost a gallon of frozen ice to help chill my wort. Dont see any problems with that but will be getting wort chiller down the road

 

Nope .... no daredevil here. Tongue in cheek comments obviously don't translate well.

It was just a question ... no need to involve the spanish inquisition

 

Thanks, that's good to know. I'm hoping to get some kind of wort chiller at some point as well as soon as I can convince my mrs that it is essential for our well being that we have one

 

What this means is it takes much more heat to go from 0*C ice to 1*C water. In other words 1 gallon of ice is more effective at cooling your wort than 1 gallon of cold water, even if the 1gal of water was the exact same temp as your ice.

I use a bunch of ice water bottles to chill my wort. No not actually in the wort, but around it in an ice bath around my brewpot. It works very well. I stir the wort and the icebath and it drops the temp quick. I am to a'feared of an infection to dump the bottles in there.

 

Excellent ... thanks for the explanation

The other reason I was asking was that I'm reading the 'Brewmaster's Bible at the moment. And it mentions pouring the wort into a primary bucket filled with cold water. So I also wondered if there would be any ill effects from pouring the wort onto ice/ice water.

 

NOTE*MY WATER IS FINE FOR TOPPING OFF, NEVER A PROBLEM*

I put ice straight from the ice maker into my cooling wort.

I know it sounds wreckless, but I figured if it worked, it was worth losing one batch to know for sure. Never a problem.

Frigidaire automatic ice maker, maybe 3 yrs old.

Only drawback is that I seldom leave enough ice in the maker for SWMBO's next drink!

Done this for at least 40 batches.

 

Count me in as a wort icer.

I searched the local convenience stores to find a particular local brand of bagged ice that is of very good quality and delivered on a regular basis. I buy a 7lb bag at the beginning of my brew day. I also choose the best bags (no holes or abrasions).

I have not had a problem with this method. One day I might...I realize that I'm rolling the dice. However, it's prob. a LOT of dice, and the chances of infection are about the same as the chances of rolling all of the same number.

I'm contemplating moving up to a bigger kettle, in which case I won't be space limited the way I am now with my 20qt kettle. If/when I get a full-boil setup, I'll prob. invest in a wort chiller. For now, I have a very simple solution to two problems: chilling wort and topping off the fermenter.

 

When I did partial boils I used to cool with my own RO water ice blocks which worked well. I'd not use commercial ice as those machines are notorious bacteria factories. I used to have one and the health inspector always checked that out first and said it was a big area for violations.

 

I've use filtered water placed in sanitized 1/2 gal. milk jugs that were then frozen. Cut off the top of the jug and slide into the cooling wort. Works well and no problems yet.

NRS

 

I buy bottled water for all my brews in the 1.5L bottles. I freeze 4.5L of them, add them to the wort (have to cut the plastic) and it brings temp down to the perfect temp to pitch. Not sure why more people don't use this method as it doesn't waste gallons of water and is cheap. The bottled water is already sterilized and I just ensure that my scissors are as well and have yet to have any problems.

 

I use ice in 10 lb bags from Rasheeds, a local convinience store, 40 or so batches, never a problem and the temp crashes in 2 minutes or so

 

Yeah, I always wondered why some brewers worry so much about "cold crashing" and "clarifying".

Just pulled the second pint from a new keg of IPA.

Clear as a bell.

Ice is the reason my beers are so clear.

 

"Cold Crashing" in the context I posted may or may not be the correct term. Its just the way I describe my method of getting the wort temp down from boiling to under 70* as fast as possible. Like I said I get it done in under 2 minutes and its done based on some good ideas. You see everyone posting about infections, getting the temp down as fast as possible so you can pitch the yeast and get it under an airlock limits the time that your wort is exposed to the air and anything that might be floating around out there. A lot of guys in here call useing Ice in the wort a gamble, well it might be but its a small one. I talked to a guy at Ready Ice, one of the ice suppliers here and the ice guy at the grocery store chain here. They both use RO to make their ice and are required by law to do a whole battery or testing, so, my ice supply chain is clean. Also you see guys posting about sanitizing ziplock bags and useing that to freeze their own boiled water in, Really? Those zip lock bags come off an assembly line at Very High temps and are molded and closed all in the same high temp environment in seconds, they are completely sterile inside, same thing with the ice bags.
I think that a lot of people have bought into the idea put out there by the water bottling companies that our public water supply is not as safe as it should be. With very few exceptions that is BS. If your on a well or maybe some CO-OP water system then you may need to take some extra steps. I live in Boca Raton, pretty fancy place but their water distribution sucked when I first moved here, boil water orders regularly due to broken water lines. Not so much anymore, but the water is Green if you put it in a white coffee cup. The chlorine boils out very early in the boil process so its never been a problem.
IMHO, and I am not any kind of expert but I have made about 40 batches with only 1 bad one and I have done every one the same way. If you use a wort chiller, it seems you need to take a lot of care to make sure it is sanitised before putting it in your wort and it also takes much longer to chill the wort than ice does. Its also a lot more trouble screwing around with a waterhose and all that. Ice drops the temp and brings up the water level all in one step and in 2 minutes I have condensation on the outside of the pot.
Bottom line is you have to make sure everything is clean and limit the exposure to possible contaminates. IMO ice does that better than a chiller or an ice bath, But, its your beer and you can do whatever you want.
This works well for extract brewing which is all I do. For AG you have to pay pretty close attention to water volume and ice may not work so well.
Sorry for the rant, but this has been my experience with it.