How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

I think you are correct, still being produced but not getting out of wort between 140-180. I've been using a CFC for a long time because of this, but forgot the exact #'s.

I like the hop tea Idea too. that would be an easy one to do a side by side experiment with.

 

subscribed

 

Subscribed.

 

Mpalvik - that's right, but you've thought it out and articulated it better than I could have. Thanks

 

Alright, so now that they're carbed up and conditioned the side by side test was done today. I also had my friend taste them without knowing which one was which.

The recipe, it's pretty out of season.
10# pilsner
8# gambrinus "esb" malt
1# carafoam
.5# honey malt
mash @ 154
90 minute boil

.8oz magnum @12.5%

When it was chilling time i split the beer into 2 pots and added .7oz saphir to each, immediately chilling the first 5 gallons and letting the other 5 sit there while the first batch chilled. Each bucket received a re-hydrated pack of S-05. The OG was 1.042 and I didn't measure the FG.

The verdict? Steeping the hops for 20 or so minutes before chilling will get more aroma and flavor out of them. All the hops were pellets.

The one that was chilled instantly doesn't really have any hop qualities at all, maybe a tiny "green" or "plant" flavor if you search for it. Pretty much a waste of hops, it mostly has a mild candy-like sweetness with a bit of malt flavor, but overall it's quite a low-flavor chuggable beer. I'd probably like it more if it was hot outside.

The one that was steeped has a modest, bright hop essence that mixes nicely with that sweetness. You can actually smell a bit of hops in it and taste them too. It's still a real mild, chuggable low-flavor beer, but there's more going on than in the other one. I think the steeped beer has a teensy bit more bitterness, but I couldn't tell until i re-tasted them to see what the difference was.

So there we go! I'm excited to find out how much more intense my hoppy brews are going to start getting pretty soon here.

 

Thanks for doing the experiment! Totally going to follow your lead on my next batch.

 

markg388,
Great info. Thanks for taking the time and doing this. I guess I am glad I don't have a chiller yet My last batch (IPA), I added hops at 8min and flame out, then chilled slowly in the sink. Should be the same results as a longer steep.

 

Pardon my potential ignorance, but wouldn't you get the same type of flavor from doing a 20 minute addition during the boil and then chilling rapidly? I mean really the only difference between letting it steep for 20 minutes and letting it boil for 20 minutes is that more water is escaping as steam during the boil, and a small temp difference. It looks to me like the hop oils boil off at a much lower temperature than water anyways, so the small temp difference should not matter too much.

 

Steam vapor bubbling up through the volatile oils drastically increase surface area and aid in stripping aromatic compounds out of the wort, this chemical engineer guesses.

 

I don't think the volatile components are necessarily all that volatile. I get good aroma from a 5min addition. Yes the steam is coming off more vigorously and you are dealing with a 20F difference in temp, but it isn't as drastic as all that. Even a straight bittering addition at 60min still gives a little flavor and aroma.

I've always felt that a FO addition was a little wasteful, so the hop stand makes sense to me. I don't know that it is going to be significantly different than something you'd get from a 15 and 5min combo though. Thats my usual protocol. I rarely dry hop and still get some very nice aroma.

As for whether a hop stand causes issues with DMS, sounds like it doesn't. If you've boiled adequately (60min for 2-row, 90min for pils) you shoud't have many precursors left.

FWH, FO w/ hop stand, 60-15-5, dry hop, its all good.

 

I always assumed that steeping for 20 and boiling for 20 minute would taste the same too and always chilled immediately as a result of this thinking. Then I had the opportunity to spend a brewday with the brewer at a local brewery I like and saw that they steeped their flameout additions for a while, which prompted me to try it out for myself. I'd say the 2 techniques produce very different results.

I couldn't tell you anything about the science... I'm more of a tastebuds-oriented brewer.

 

I think it more likely that a hop stand is going to produce results more like a 5min addition, since the temp isn't as high and the rolling boil isn't moving things around.

 

Do you mean hop steep? Or am I missing something....

 

I've heard it called a hop stand, when you let the wort "stand" for some time after turning off/down the heat so its not boiling. Its steeping though. i've done it before, just because I thought it would bring out the flavor/aroma. FO hops always seemed to me to be a little bit underutilized in theory. I don't usualy spare the hops though so its hard to really tell and I'm not one to do a side by side experiment.

 

Very interesting. So for my next batch I'll do an oz FWH, bittering hops and then hold off and at FO I'll toss in another oz or two for a half hour.

Yes, I love hops.

B

 

From a chemical processing perspective, there is an old listed property of some materials; "volatile with steam," in reference books. Direct steam injection is a very old method for getting heavier organics that are not water-soluble or necessarily all that volatile to leave the pot. Whisky is made in this manner for the very reason that the flavors that make it whisky are volatile with steam; no other distillation method will make whisky, as the organic molecules giving the flavor will not be carried over. So, it is this biochemist's opinion, that the more steam you are removing from a kettle, the more flavoring chemicals (good or bad) you are removing. Soaking the hops under boiling temps should increase solubility without losing too much in the way of organics that are only volatile with steam, leading to more hop flavor than either not soaking hot or boiling for any period. The higher temperatures also would, of course, lend themselves to chemical changes that could alter flavor profile, so I wouldn't say performing the "hop steep" would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time! Too many factors to know.

 

Best theory I've read so far! Thanks for your input!

 

What? A little confusing.

If I read it right, you are saying that high temperatures are best for extracting hop oils (flavor and aroma), and not boiling/steaming reduces the loss of those oils, retaining more of the oils in the finished product.

The next question that comes up is ... Are you also adding bittering compounds to the wort and increasing the IBUs during this time? It is my understanding that bittering compounds need to be isomerized (evaporated and condensed) to become soluble in the wort, so you will not get any additional bittering when the pot is not actually boiling.

So; my 15 to 30 minute hop steep is not just a waste of time.

 

I don't think RickFinsta is claiming that your 15 to 30 min steep is a waste of time but the opposite, that it increases hop flavor. I didn't see where he discussed isomerization of bittering compounds at all, and rightfully so because because it probably doesn't take place in a significant way if at all in a hot steep.

Additionally it seems that RickFinsta hits on an interesting point in that steeping at high temperatures lend themselves to chemical changes that "could alter flavor profile". He doesn't claim to either empirically or subjectively know what those chemical changes will be every time and/or for any given hop variety ("too many factors to know") so therefore the statement, "so I wouldn't say performing the 'hop steep' would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time!" makes sense.

I think we can almost assume though that since we boil hops in the normal course of making beer (i.e add hops to hot liquids for the intent of releasing bittering and flavoring compounds) that steeping hops in hot liquid, especially if the variety is known to us to be pleasant to our senses will yield a pleasant result and/or will increase the aromatics that we are seeking to add to the flavor of the beer we are making. The caveat: it should be appropriate to style if trying to make to style. If not attempting to brew 'to style' then do whatever you want.

The fact that high temperatures (therefore temperature variations in general) alter flavors by creating chemical changes means to me that a brewer will get different flavor profiles by boiling for long periods, by hot steeping, and by dry hopping and any other temperature step in between. Lets just not assume that these methods will always give us what we desire flavor wise in the beer that we are attempting to create.

I intend to start hot steeping my flame out additions for certain styles of beer I make as I have not been doing this. I am quite excited about it actually and can't wait to taste the results. Definitely will hot steep for my next APA. May try it in a restrained way for ESB's and American Ambers. Probably not incredibly appropriate in the other styles I normally brew but I am open to trying new things too. My .02 FWIW.

 

subscribed

 

do you cover with lid during the steep? also...are you recirculating during the steep?

 

Love this thread! Some great discussion here, lets keep it going!

I was thinking about doing a 2 oz flame out addition with some Falconers Flight, and whirlpooling it for 30 mins or so. Giving it the occasional stir and letting it sit with the lid on before cooling. I also plan on dry hopping with another 2 oz of this hop type as well. I love hops and hop aroma. Hope this works well!

 

I just read the article on using Late Addition Hops only. Check out www.mrmalty.com . I'm a big fan of smooth (medium) bitterness, huge hop flavor, and huge hop aroma. I'll be making an IPA with a BASIC grain bill and US-05 this weekend and will be using a blend of Amarillo and Simcoe hops at 20, 10, and 5 only. I'll post my results in a few weeks.

 

This sounds like something I may try on my next pale or ipa. But one thing i was reading about recently and was wondering about is dms not being boiled off during the hop steep. Does nobody worry about this because the hop flavor will cover any off flavor? Or do most people not really worry about dms at all. I never had notice any dms type favors in my 25 brews before I ever heard of it.

 

DMS precursors should be long gone by the end of a 60 minute boil, (90 min if you are using pilsner malt!), so no worries there.

I'd forgotten about this thread up until I saw it revived today. Just want to say, I've been doing 10-30 min recircs after flameout before chilling since I first read this, sometimes first chilling to 190 and holding it there for 10-30 min, sometimes just letting it sit hot at 210 (down to about 195 after 20 min). With all of them, I think I'm getting much better hop aroma than if I had started chilling immediately.

 

yep, me too. ipas have been just perfect.

 

Sounds good. You guys baggng your hops or using a hop spider? I just wonder if the difference might be less pronounced when adding pellets loose. Although if its like tea, theres a difference between steeping vs boiling.

 

I'm using loose pellets, and the difference is definitely noticeable. The extended whirlpool after flameout also helps to collect the hops in the center.

 

I will comment on the science of this…

Hops have many specific aromatic contributors that can favorably affect a beer’s aroma if utilized properly. The most important contributor when it comes to delivering that blast hop aroma is a hydrocarbon compound known as myrcene.

Myrcene is an important part of the essential aromatic oils in hops. Perfumeries frequently harness its power. And commercial American IPA brewers strongly favor hefty late and dryhop additions of high level myrcene hops like Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial, Nugget, US Northern Brewer, and Horizon. Other hops like Columbus, Summit, Galaxy, and Chinook have moderately high amounts myrcene while still having very high total oil levels. The interesting thing about hops like these is that despite having high total oil levels and high myrcene, these hops tend to have low levels of caryophyllene, humulene, farnesene, and selinene. The opposite is true for European Noble hops which have low total oils, low myrcene, and moderately high levels of everything else.

Myrcene is highly volatile and subject to heat and oxidation. Thus it is found at very low levels when used early in the boil, but the levels are much higher during mid flameout and dryhop. A 60 minute hop stand during mid flameout (anywhere between 100-150 F) have provided the best results for me. This is easily attained by using a slow-cooling ice bath as opposed to a fast cooling wort chiller. I do this in my stainless steel sink, which covers the kettle about 3/4 of the way with ice-water. It quickly melts so you really need to keep re-icing to realistically cool it in one hour. Don't be afraid of adding ice. The kettle will be primarily covered to aid sanitation (aside from 2 or 3 short whirlpools). A covered kettle is necessary after the boil, but it retains a ton of heat.

I’m so glad I did not buy a wort chiller because I would have never stumbled on the benefits of a long hop stand, which has given me insane hop aroma. I always couple a long hop stand with a substantial dryhop at the rate of 0.50 to 1.00 ounce hops per gallon of beer (0.65 average), depending on gravity, time, and technique of the brewer. So both techniques in combination have really worked to wow me and my friends.

As with most other aspects of hop quality, there is a difference between whole hops and pellets as well. Whole hops can have as much as 70% more myrcene than pellets of the same variety, but that difference is flipped when the wort is hopped as only 5% of myrcene is extracted from whole hops compared to 17% from pellets. This is why I prefer pellets for flameout and dryhop additions. Pellets also release more of their oils in a shorter time frame. However, I try to stick with leaf hops during the boil because their quality is typically better since it cannot be masked through processing like pellet hops.

In closing, you're really looking for the following:

*High hop oil content
*High myrcene
*Low levels of the other Noble hop compounds
*Long hop stand between 100-150 F
*Using pellet hops late
*Using a slow-working ice bath with a couple whirlpools
*Implementing a substantial dryhop in combo with long hop stand

 

I haven't tried the long hop stand, having just tried no-chill for the first time the other night on my latest batch. But I do know that substantial amounts of dry hops makes a big difference; I used 4 oz in my last 5-gal batch of pale ale. The result was orgasmic.

 

This part confuses me. Is there any reason you couldn't just use an immersion chiller to get below 170F, and then turn off the chiller and begin your hop stand? That's what I do, and it takes me about a minute to reach 170. When I'm ready, I just turn the water back on and chill to pitching temps.

 

Sure, but I don't have an immersion chiller. I simply let the covered wort cool slightly in the ice bath after the first whirlpool, and after about 20 minutes when it cools down a bit, I will add the mid-flameout hops, whirlpool again, drain the extra melted water and add more ice to the bath.

 

@tonyolympia

Since you chimed in about using an immersion chiller, I've been trying my own approach by using an immersion chiller in conjunction with an ice bath. I bring the wort quickly to 160-ish with the immersion chiller then rely on the ice bath the rest of the way (160 down to 65). That way, the post-boil hops can steep in the warm (not scalding hot) wort for a good 20-30 minutes. The aroma and clarity is better than ever so I'm guessing the cold break isn't that big of a deal. Perhaps achieving a fast cold break by chilling fast from boiling (212 F) to pitching temps (65 F) isn't as important as quickly cooling to a certain temp. like 160 or 140 F (down from 212)... who knows. I guess you could rely on the wort chiller for the duration, by simply turning it off when needed, but I wanted to experiment with a longer steep in the 90-150 F temp range, as opposed to a 20 minute steep at 150-160F quickly followed by a fast drop to 65.

 

Excellent thread ppl....

one thing I didn't catch anyone asking and I've been doing some thinking on this recently and was wondering...

My 60 min additions (usually kept minimal on IPA/APAs) goes in my paint strainer bag along with all other additions. I've found my bitterness on some APAs is higher than my IPAs when trying to obtain more hop flavor.

Would it help if I pulled the hop bag out at flame out and dropped in a new / second bag for my flame out hops and whirl-pooling?

 

>.Would it help if I pulled the hop bag out at flame out and dropped in a new / second bag for my flame out hops and whirl-pooling?

Thats what I was thinking of doing, and I'd like to hear what others do.

 

Are you concerned about additional bitterness from your 60 minute additions during the steep phase? Contrary to my last post I have learned that bitterness can be obtained just from the steep and I have been trying to calibrate my recipes as if a 30 minute steep at around 180 - 200 degrees counts as about the same as a 20 min boil addition. Now what I am wondering is does that take a 60 min addition and turn it into an 80 min addition, thus creating more bittering than intended in the recipe? If it works like this then yes pulling out your bittering charge during the steep makes sense. Either that or move it up 20 minutes so it would be boiled for 40 minutes then steeped with the FO hops for 20 minutes. This is what I did for my last pale ale and the bittering is real soft while aromatic and flavor additions are nicely represented although I think I used 2.5 oz for a 1052 APA and it needs to be more. I keep upping the FO each time I brew this recipe and I may need to reach that 0.65 to 1 oz. per gallon that others have spoken of on this thread. The bittering is very pleasant though with this technique.

 

The other thing you can do is cut back a little on your bittering hops.

 

Subscribed!

 

I find this discussion interesting. I know that homebrewing and commercial brewing are not directly comparable. At work we add hops at flame out, whirlpool 15 minutes, let stand 20 minutes. The kettle is generally in the 200ish range. I have no idea what actual isometrization is at that point. I am no commercial brewing expert, just following methods as per those above me, haha. This makes me wonder what kind of results you could get if you ran your worth through a HX to 150-180ish into a seperate whirlpool vessel what results would be like. . . mostly curiousity.

For homebrewing, I usually FWH, 15,10,5 and at Flame out I add a big addition than chill immediately. Perhaps I am going to try and drop to 150-180ish and then add my zero hops and let rest 15-20 minutes to see what kind of a difference it makes. When I tried to do a 15 minute whirlpool and let my hops stand for 20 minutes directly after flameout the results were less than ideal. This however could have been a variety of other factors. Who knows.

 

Just kegged a beer i brewed a couple weeks ago where i chilled the wort to 170 before adding a huge addition and did a 30 minute hopstand. It's quite a wrecking ball of flavor and aroma I must say... I'm pretty impressed. Can't wait until it's carbed and dry hopped.