Hop Stand/Whirlpool - Getting great hop aroma/flavor

So the title says it all. I wanted to memorialize, if for nothing else, any/all info I can turn up on some definitive late addition/whirlpool/hop stand techniques and temps. I know there are other threads out there, but the info can be scattered or contradicting when I read through it. I read a great article on Embrace the Funk and it was an interview of Chad Yakobson from Crooked Stave. I think they make some fantastic beers and I was really appreciative of the comments/notes in the interview about late addition hops, click here. There were some comments about avoiding 90/60 min. additions of Magnum/Warrior type hops to avoid heavy bitterness (mentioned they can come off astringent and overpowering...to each their own of course) and instead go with Chinook or Centennial at 15min and work in the remaining hops as late additions. There were also comments about whirlpool/knockout techniques that where interesting. The comment was "....what’s nice about a whirlpool is once you run it through that’s another vessel taking temperature out, so now you can be down to 185F. So at 185F that’s where you are able to pull the “sesquiterpenes” and “terpenes”, which are highly volatile aromatics and compounds that are in hops. Normally when you hops to the boil they just “vapor” off because they are so volatile, but when you are at 180F…you are pulling them in and those compounds aren’t being driven off the beer. That gives the aroma and flavor you are looking for."

Additionally, there some comment about the length of time that hops are in contact with the wort at knockout and through whirlpool, as follows:
"As soon as I turned off the steam to the jackets on the boil kettle and started the whirlpool, that’s when the first hop additions were added. It’s all aroma hops additions, but you are still getting some IBUs. You still get utilization even at 180 degrees and we’re not getting to 180 degrees until the end of knocking out. You whirlpool for roughly 15 minutes, then rest for 10-15 minutes so that’s 30 minutes already the hops have been sitting. Knock out takes another 30-45 minutes, so from the time you’ve added the first hops they’ve been in there over an hour. So there is isomerization going on…albeit the utilization is not 30%, probably 1 %. But all the same it’s still occurring and that’s where I find more than enough bitterness for the beers we are brewing."

Another good comment was:
"Don’t be afraid to use a decent amount of hops. We are using anywhere from 2 to 4 pounds per barrel. In the black IPA I went a little lighter using 2 pounds per barrel so for homebrewers we are looking at half a pound to 1 pound per carboy. A 1/3rd of that for late hopping and 2/3rd for dry hopping"

And then most everyone has read the BYO article about hop standing. The thing about that article is that it doesn't really draw any conclusions on what works best. Here. In that article, I found the comment useful about:
"The 190–212 °F (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. "

From the ETF article and the BYO article, the perception I have after reading is to ditch 90/60 min bittering additions and use a high AA hop (your preference) at around 15/10 min. for bittering and aroma/flavor and then start add all the remaining hops starting at flameout/knockout and through whirlpool/hop stand to obtain subtle bitterness and really ramp up aroma/flavor. And if you are trying to calculate utilization, I'd say a good rule would be 10-15% at post boil temps of 212F-200F, 5-10% at 200F-190F, and at 190F to 180F you are looking at around 1-5%. All of that is useful from an IBU/bitterness standpoint. So, dependent on what sort of aroma/flavor punch you are looking for, in conjunction with bitterness, you can make your own judgement calls based on the profile you are going for.

Also, there is plenty of material out there on DIPA's and bigger IPAs to go with hop extract if you can for a cleaner taste and to also make sure the beer is dry (add in some table sugar to the boil and mash low 149/150) to accentuate hop aroma.

I also enjoyed the recipe notes on Electric Brewery.com about hop standing, here.

Also, there are some slides from a presentation Ray Daniels gave on hop standing noting:
Stretching Your Hops Conclusion:
• Dry hop gives best aroma
• Long steep increases hop character
– Caution: long wort stand OK if you have a strong, vigorous 90 min boil
• For a given amount of finishing hops: – Best results if you split them btw steep and dry

And of course, make sure you are mindful of your water profile (Ca and SO4 levels)

All of this seems to support what I've known, whether I arrived at it by accident or from trial and error. I'm still narrowing into the best hop stand temps, but find that 185-175F for 30min. is perfect for pale ales and the sort. I did a hop stand for an IPA starting around 200F and let it free fall to 180F for 60m and it was just too bitter for my liking (of course, I used Warrior at FWH). So I'm thinking I could probably omit most/if not all my early additions (90/60) on IPAs and add various bittering charge amounts around 10/15min. and then start at flameout with additions to gather subtle bitterness and then add more and more hops towards 185F to bring in aroma/flavor. Typically I've always used various amounts of Warrior hops at 90min./FWH for most of my hoppy beers, but I may ease back/off of that in the future.

I plan on brewing an IPA in the next couple of weeks and I'll be putting some of these thoughts to test. Anyway, hope whoever reads this finds some useful thoughts/info and feel free to add what you know to this thread. Thx.

>> new addition 3/10/14 <<< A couple of new links to add. One is a website link to a blog called "In Hop Pursuit". Interesting article about the different oils in hops and how those can potentially impact aroma/flavor. Click here. Overall, a load of great snippets about all things hops. One thing I am going to tinker with is hop oil ratios in the next hoppy beer I brew. There's also another blog "Beer Sensory Science" that has more info on hop oils. Essentially, scientific support that late additions are the way to go to get noticeable linalool presence in the aroma/flavor of your beer (flowery aroma/flavor). According to the article, dry hopping will not help you achieve that. Click here. Also, if you are interested in charting/tracking hop oils in your beer, you can use the following spreadsheet. I found this spreadsheet link and many of the prior mentioned links on The Mad Fermentationist blog.

 

Thanks for putting all of this together. This is a tough topic because it's affected by so many variables. For example, for outdoor brewers, colder temps will causes the wort to stay at a given temp for a shorter period of time, so any additions in isomerization temps will result in less bitterness than a brewer in warm temps. It seems literally like a moving target for home brewers. Of course, it's also affected by the alpha acids content of the hops used during the stand. Without a way to accurately or at least consistently predict bitterness contribution with the hops stand, I wonder of the technique will frustrate more than please. All of that said, I keep trying myself!!

 

Posting mostly to keep track of the thread.

I've recently started adding finishing hops at 170 and steeping for 30+ minutes to see if it makes much difference. Still waiting to see the results.

I'd love to know what happens at 200 f, 185 f, 170 f, etc; how long, and at what temps. I'm sure within this community we can figure it out.

 

Great write up. Just did my first hop stand with my latest saison. Curious to see how the results come out as well

 

I've read a lot of the linked information before but thanks for grouping into one post. I totally get the hopstand approach and will be doing that on the next batch but haven't really thought about not doing any bittering until the 10/15 minute additions. My takeaway on hopstands was that it was all about aroma. If the 60/90 minute additions were too much couldn't you just cut back on hop amount or hopshot it? Using the approach mentioned you would never use any clean bittering hop (magnum, etc.) again since you would be depending on that bittering addition for flavor as well. Not sure I'm there yet but will follow others experiences.

 

I just brewed a Heady Topper clone today which is my first time using hop extract but I added those at 90m. That said everything else was flameout/hop stand additions and the sample i tried after chilling was unique. Definitely absent the "green" flavors that come with a 90m addition of magnum or warrior.

Anyway planning to do a Belgian wit with galaxy hops soon and I'm going to put these theories to test. Will be doing a 15m addition and then all flameout/hop stand additions.

 

I've started doing a combination of whirlpooling and feeding back wort from my counterchiller into a suspended bag with flameout hop additions. Kinda like the best of both worlds. Wort is chilling into the hops. Wort typically starts around 195 and drops to 110 over the first 20 minutes of hop stand. I'm moving to a plate chiller, so I'll likely lose this option, but it did produce nice flavor and aroma.

Thanks for the thorough post KChomebrew. It's neat to see how many different ways there are to get the most out your hop additions.

 

Stumbled upon a hop standing article a bit ago, not sure which one. Have done my last four brews with three to four oz steeps. Start at 180 deg and stop at 170. Takes about an hour to get down to that temp. Then cool through a counter flow. Holy Crap! All that flavor minus the astringency. The first , an IPA with 5oz in the boil at different intervals and a 4 oz hop stand. My last was a pale ale with .5 Amarillo @ 60,.5 Amarillo @ 30,.5 Amarillo @ 15, with a 4 oz stand for one hr (2 oz simcoe,.5 Amarillo ,1.5 homegrown cascade. ) . The only way to go when making those big 2xIPA's


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I edited and added in some new content to the original post - added noted as a new addition with date.

 

If you don't do a 60 minute addition, and instead do 15 minute additions, you will need twice as many hops to achieve the same bitterness, which will give you a much stronger hop flavor, which will affect the balance of the beer. (as well as require an extra ounce or two of hops).

Has anyone had experience doing this that they would be kind enough to share?

 

I've had promising results cooling down to 125 (post boil) and doing a whirlpool for about 20 min. To get the temp down quickly in the post boil I recirculate through my plate chiller with the cooling water on as usual, when I get down to temp I just turn the cooling water off and continue to recirculate through the plate chiller; the temp will stay pretty stable, its worked out fine the couple of times I've tried it. The hop flavor is very good, its not as intense as dry hopping but it lasts the duration of the keg. Since I'm down at 125 I don't adjust for any additional bittering, there might be a little but it would be negligible. I tried this on a beer I've brewed several times so I had a good idea of the differences. I think I'll try the next one at 150 to see what it tastes like.

 

Interesting. Never read anything about sub 170f additions. Most of the whirlpool/hop stand techniques call for temps around 170/180f. Not doubting it. But if you could do it, it would be awesome to brew the same beer with different hop stand temps and durations to see what happens. I guess I would assume you'd extract a good amt of aroma but maybe not much flavor at sub 170 ?





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I do this all the time. I do a 20 minute addition. There will not be any sharpness to the bitterness so stick to the 60 if you like the bite. I do it nearly every time with my APAs or single hop experiments

 

Brewed yesterday and whirlpooled for 30 minutes starting at 136 (wanted to start at 140 but in the 10 seconds it took me to shut water off plate chiller it chilled past that point). Think it dropped another 8 degrees by the end. Going to do a double dry hop as well and am anxious to see how much aroma the IPA has.


Almost Famous Brewing Company

 

Keep us posted on how it turns out


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Thanks for putting this together KC. Very interesting that some are happy with <170F hopstands. I was not, but I am after bigger flavor not aroma. Stirring has made the largest impact on my hopstand over duration, temps, or pH. The first few I did I just chucked the hops in and just let em sit in fear of evaporation of the volatiles. After even an hour, the hops remained on the surface. Now I get a crazy whirlpool going before I add them and repeat every 5 minutes and they remain in suspension after the first 5 minutes.

Strangely enough, it has been suggested that the yeast strain may actually play a more important role in achieving what I am after.

 

I've done some lower end hop stands as well (around 140 or so). I had one do quite well in a competition, but it had stands at other temperatures as well (the recipe is in my recipes if anyone is interested). I also did one where I brewed 10 gallons. Did a hop stand at flameout, drained off 5 gallons, dropped the temp to 130 (over shot the temp) and did another stand on the other half. Honestly, the beers were nearly identical and I may have only noticed a difference because I was looking for one. I should have done a bling triangle tasting to see if there really was a decreeable difference.

 

So what do you think of 170 vs 130 for a hop stand?

 

Unfortunately, I never did just a 170 rest and just a 140 rest, so I couldn't say between the two. I would say that the 140 is a waste of time if a higher stand is used. At least that is my experience with it.

 

Wont' go into tremendous details here - but I've found that Ca levels are important in the profile of a hoppy beer and the Cl and So4 levels in the beer also make a huge difference. Even more so important if you are using an English strain or Conan yeast strain. I've also found out that where you add the your CaCl and CaSo4, etc additions in the process is a big deal (HLT vs. mash vs BK).

 

If you don't mind, details would be nice. I'd be interested to see what your experiences are.

 

All very good posts. Nice info!

I agree with the sulfate levels too. Haven't tried anything around 300 yet but have had one turn out pretty well with 180ish and one that I bottled yesterday around 210.

I really enjoy the dryness that a low mash and higher sulfate brings. Maine Beer Co. has some great dry yet sweet beers. Their FGs finish so low probably from a lower temp mash yet are still sweet. So I'm wondering if they have high sulfate levels to give it some extra dryness.

 

A lot of great info and discussion here. Thanks!

I had a question about hop stand times when using pellets. All the posts that mention hop stand times/durations do not specify whole or pellet hops. Maybe this doesn't matter, but it would seem to me that using pellets would reduce the time needed to obtain the same amount of flavor/aroma in the hop stand. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

I always use pellets. They are easier to work with and IMO permit the wort to more easily absorb the hop oils.

 

Just stumbled on this. I have been doing a lot of reading and research on hop stands and whirl-pooling lately. Thanks for all the articles condensed in the first post.

My idea I have is to use hop shots for the bittering charge. Then only add hops in the whirlpool for flavor and aroma and dry hop. My plan is to hop stand @170 for an 30 min to a hour. This should add no bitters but utilize the hops better.

My thought process from reading articles, is you want the temp low enough, below 180, to not contribute IBUs. But you also want it hot enough to effectively utilize the hops. So my theory is between 180-170 degrees should be the sweet spot.

My last two batches I did, one I used 2 oz at flame out and started cooling. It seemed to have a lot of hop flavor and aroma without adding much bitters. My other batch on the other hand. I used 2 oz at flameout and did a 10 min hopstand without cooling. It added a lot of extra bitters and I did not notice as much hop flavor.

Good stuff, let's keep this going.

 

Found this interesting.

"However, if you don't want to get any bitterness from the whirlpool addition, there is an adaptation to the method that will accommodate this, seeing as you probably won't get any more alpha acid isomerization once the temp drops below 175 F. One method is to turn on your chiller for a few minutes until the temp hits the 170 - 180 F range. The lower temperature will, in theory, reduce the vaporization of essential oils. Of course, going further down, past the 160 F range, even further reduces your chances of driving off low flashpoint oils, but I'm not sure this is really necessary, personally.

Of course, there is also the option for a split addition approach, which I believe is what I will be doing for my hoppiest beers in the future. Add some of the hops immediately after flameout, let stand for 20-30 minutes (or until the temperature has dropped to ~180ish F), then add the rest of the hops, and let stand another 20 / 30 minutes. Then cool down to pitching temps. In this way, you should cover the best of both worlds.

The temp and timing is up to you, and there seem to be a number of methods that would bring good results. You're going to have to adjust for your brewing system, which is likely different from my brewing system, and almost certainly different from a commercial brewing system. You're also going to have to adjust for the recipe you're brewing, and your tastes.

I was skeptical when I first read of this technique, assuming it was one of those "Well, if you've got enough hops that you want to cram them in at every possible moment..." indulgences (I'm looking at you, mash hopping). However, the more hoppy beers I brew, the fewer hops I've been adding to the boil. For hop-forward styles, I find myself adding hops at First Wort, just a bit at 60 minutes, and flameout + hop stand. If your goal is to extract as much flavor and aroma as possible, is there really a benefit to grabbing those few IBUs achieved with a 15 or 10 minute boil addition? You could get the same from a minuscule bump in your 60 minute or FWH addition. What I really want out of my hops is flavor — the bitterness part, that's easy. Whatever brings me closest to that unadulterated hop flavor, that's what I'll be doing."

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/07/the-benefits-of-hop-stand-whirlpool.html?m=1

 

Found this great slide deck/presentation on making Hop Fu IPA. Had to be done by Kelsey McNair, I'm assuming. About as comprehensive a listing of techniques as I've seen....
http://societyofbarleyengineers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ArtOfHop-Fu.pdf

 

If you are looking to get any appreciable bitterness from your hopstands, i would use a lot more than a measly 2oz. Ill usually add some at flameout and more below ~180F and it turns out very well. I only will use 0.5-1.0oz at 60min for what id estimate is liek 50% of my bittering and get the rest form the hopstand. I would also do 30min at the very least for a hopstand

 

m00ps and all others, what would be your minimum amount of hops added at flameout or hopstand? Two questions really because you can attain differences during both additions. Flameout adding some bitterness and hopstand at 180* or lower should just pull flavor and no bitterness. If my research serves me correct.

1. Least amount of hops at flameout and then hopstand?
2. Least amount of hops at a whirlpool or hopstand under 180*?

 

Hmm, I dunno if I have any hard rules for hopstands. I usually divide my flameout/180F hops depending onwhat I want to taste and smell more. Here's the hop bill for my last few IPAs

Regular IPA - tropical berry melon
@60: 1 oz apollo
@15: 1 oz Belma / 1 oz Huell Melon
@0: 1 oz Belma / 2 oz Huell Melon / 2 oz Pac gem / 1 El Dorado
@+30: 1 oz Belma / 1 oz Huell Melon / 2 oz Pac gem / 1 El Dorado
@dry: 1 oz Belma / 1 El Dorado
@2nddry: 1 El Dorado / 1 oz citra
@keg: 2 oz citra

Black IPA - pine dank touch of citrus
@30: 1 summit
@15: 1 simcoe / 1 adha484
@0: 1 simcoe / 3 adha484/ 2 chinook /
@+30: 1 simcoe / 2 chinook / 3 vics secret
@dry: 1 simcoe / 1 chinook
@dry2: 2 comet / 1 vics secret
@keg: 1 simcoe / 1 chinook

Session IPA - tropical mango tangerine
@60: 1/2 oz bravo
@15: 1 Belma / 1 Azzaca
@0: 1 ½ Belma / 1 ½ Azzaca / 1 exp6277 / 1 amarillo
@+30: 1 Belma / 1 Azzaca / 2 exp 6277 / 1 amarillo
@dry: ½ Belma / ½ Azzaca / 1 exp6277
@keg: 2 oz Amarillo

DIPA - tastes like Sunny D, used flour in the boil so its looks like OJ
@30: 1 oz apollo
@10: 1 oz mandarina / 1 oz summer / 1 amarillo /
@0: 1 oz mandarina / 3 oz summer / 1 oz Exp7270 / 1 oz apollo /
@+30: 2 oz citra / 2 oz Exp7270 / 2 oz apollo /
@dry: 1 oz citra / 1 oz Exp7270
@dry2: 1 oz citra / 1 oz amarillo
@keg: 1 oz citra / 1 oz amarillo

100% Brett IPA - straight up fruit salad
@60 1/2 oz magnum
@15: 1 Hallertau Blanc / 1 Nelson
@0: 3 Hallertau Blanc / 1 Nelson / 1 Citra
@+30: 2 Hallertau Blanc / 1 Nelson / 2 Citra
@dry: 1 Nelson / 1 Citra
@dry2: 2 Hallertau Blanc

the Sunny D-IPA I tapped last week. I have never had anything with so much hop aroma. Last 2 days I got off work, pulled a 4oz sample, and entirely destroyed my palate for the rest of the night. It is absolutely glorious. I need to post a pic, really looks like OJ in the glass. I want to share it with the world before it starts to fade...

 

You some kind of lightweight, only using 22 ounces of hops?
Any brewer that uses less than 2 pounds isn't a real brewer.


This is for 5 gallons right?


I used 8 ounces for 5 gallons and was quite pleased. Even that may be too much as I wonder if I got "full value" from the hops.

 

yeah those are 5 gallon batches. I think I may need to look into some sort of 12 step program. Its a slippery slope...once you start ramping up the hopstand additions you dont want to bother making an IPA with any less...

 

I remember people freaking when I said a pound for 5G...

Moops: do you think the fruit intensity you describe (tropical mango tangerine) is on par with pro IPAs? My IPA are good, hoppy, and relatively fruity, but the the pro beers are like they are cheating with fruit juice/fruit extract/etc. Wonder if they have access to fresher hops or something.

 

They probably have better access to hops, or some dirty secret. I am anything but unbiased, however I would say that the hop flavors I get are more pungent than any commercial IPA I've ever had. But then again, that may be due to storage and distribution times on their end.

I did get a 6pack of Stone's Enjoy By 10/31/15 last week though. It was bottled 9/26 it says. This thing is decidedly more bitter than my DIPA I mentioned, but its flavors seem almost muted compared to mine.

Id definitely say to give hop levels like that a shot sometime. Its expensive, but well worth it IMO

 

Ok so I brought a glass of it to my local brewery. Omg, they straight up offered me a job. If anyone wants the recipe I will be glad to give it. My head is swelling but I am absolutely floored by this beer. Let me know if anyone wants one or the recipe. I want to get rid of this before it declines, I would feel so bad if half of it doesn't get experienced before its too late...

 

I'm finding the information in this presentation VERY interesting. I know there's been a lot of talk about sulfate levels, etc. on this thread, so to quote directly "
Strike Water Profile:
Calcium @ 125-150ppm - Instrumental in all beer production. Promotes clarity, flavor and stability. Lowers mash pH.
Sulfate @ 200-250ppm - accentuates hop bitterness Chloride @ 40-50ppm - punches up malt flavor/fullness
Bicarbonate @ sub 40ppm - high levels make hops soapy/harsh, dull, or “blah” tasting
Magnesium @ 10-20ppm - important for yeast in metabolizing adjunct sugars (ex: dextrose in Double/Imperial IPA)

And then I found the details about the mash, specifically that he's only holding the mash at 152F for 35min (I'm usually 60 min or 90min depending). before sparging. And a 70 min sparge at that....very very long sparge (I'm usually a 30min sparge - never have issues hitting my anticipated readings):
Strike Water: 13 gallons (1.56 quarts / pound)
100% Reverse Osmosis + 25g Gypsum & 5g Calcium Chloride
Sparge Water: 11 gallons 100% Reverse Osmosis Saccharification Rest: Single infusion, 20 minutes @ 152 F Vorlauf: ~15 minutes
Sparge: 60 minutes @ 170 F

And, in my opinion, assuming you keep an O2 free environment in your conical, I think this is where the magic happens:

Day 1: Cool wort to ideal pitching temp of 67F, Aerate wort with pure O2 through diffusion stone, Pitch yeast starter or freshly harvested slurry, and Attach blow off tubing
Day 2-7: Maintain 67F fermentation temperature via external temp controller
Day 8: Remove blow off, seal fermenter (keg or conical only!!) Day 10: Reduce to 60F for diacetyl rest
Day 11: Dump trub, harvest yeast slurry, add dry hops, return to 67F
Day 14-16: Begin crash cycle, cooling 10F every 12 hours until 37F Day 17: Rack...

Anyone have any thoughts on the Day 8 comment ? Removing the blow off and "seal fermenter" ? Is it possible he's completely sealing off the fermenter (no airlock) for the remainder of the fermenting/dry hop/crash cycle ? Sort of makes sense to me as I think about it - and especially with the drop to 60F, I would assume that would drop out a lot of yeast/cease most of the active fermentation before increasing back to 67F for 4 days for the drop hop.

 

This is his/her process that works with their equipment and variables. I wouldn't think day 8 would work for every yeast strain. It would also be dependent on things like pitch rate, cell density and other factors.

Closing the airlock off makes sense to me to keep the yeast under pressure. Dropping to 60 then rasing back up probably benefits in the ways you describe. I experimented once with a dry hop that low because Oskar Blues said it was in their process. There wasn't nearly the same aroma extraction as 67/8.

 

Which beer was it?

 

Its this the OJ geared double IPA I posted the hop bill for earlier. I think I finally dialed in the perfect IPA to my tastes. Last regular IPA I did ended up a tiny bit too bitter so I cut the bittering addition to account for the large hopstand. Its perfect. I just need to figure out how to adjust my regular berry/melon IPA to have similar hop presence

 

Subbing for some post work reading!