Going against the grain- dry yeast starters

Before I have to start dodging bullets...hear me out.

I have already read that you do not need a starter for dry yeast. I am aware that they are made by the manufacturer to be re-hydrated and pitched, and that they have nutrient reserves that a starter will deplete, leading to less than healthy yeast.

However, I have read/listened to Jamil, and it seems like common knowledge that as a rule of thumb, home brewers underpitch. As I thumb through Brewing Classic Styles, many of Jamil's recipes call for multiple packs of liquid yeast; and we could be talking about a 3 liter starter!

I began brewing six months ago (all grain), and at first, I always selected the liquid yeast option with my kits. I always followed protocol, and made starters for my liquid yeast. I would do my starter on a Thursady/Friday, and brew and pitch on Sunday. Typically, I would see evidence of fermentation within 3 days. I always thought my resulting beers had too many esters, and were often under attenuated, which I understand could be a product of under pitching (let's just assume I nailed my mash temperatures). Since then, through the graces of a Barley Crusher and Jamil's book, I have been able to buy grain in bulk and build my own recipes, but liquid yeast can get expensive, so I stocked up on US-05.

My first brew with dry yeast was an American Wheat. I brewed on Sunday, rehydrated and pitched, and did not see any evidence of fermentation until the following Friday. The beer is pretty good, and it fully attenuated, but it is still not very clean tasting. That was a stressful week, but it got me thinking about doing starters for dry yeast, in order to avoid that lag time.

my theory goes as follows:
A large percentage of the dry yeast is dead by the time you use it. Jamil has covered that on his pod casts. The cell count is very high on the package, but that is only because the manufacture can not say for sure how viable the yeast will be by the time it hits the carboy. By doing a starter on Tuesday, my mini-fermentation is complete by Friday, and I can crash cool and decant before pitching on Sunday. So far, I have done this 3 times, and I have seen a quick and complete fermentation each time.

To combat the concerns about depleted reserves, I add yeast nutrient to the starter as well as to the boil. In regard to overpitching concerns, there is no way that 1 or 2 packs of dry yeast could equal the amount of yeast you are dealing with when you rack on top of your previous batch, a practice that many support. The final concern I have heard about this possible overpitching; a lack of esters. However, I am making nothing but American style Ales, and per style, a huge ester profile is undesired. I am looking for super clean beers, and I doubt a large pitch will hurt that.

FWIW, I do a 3 week primary with no secondary, and I bottle condition. That may rule out a few concerns about not letting the yeast do its job.

Again, I know the yeast is DESIGNED to be used with no starter, but is that because the manufacture is opting for ease of use over best practice?

So what do you think? Are there any other renegades who throw caution into the wind and do a dry yeast starter?

 

I do a starter with dry yeast, just did one on Saturday. I use the actual wort that I produce while brewing. While the yeast is propagating, I settle the rest of the wort to the ideal fermenting temp and then pitch 1-2 days later.

Mr. Malty (Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator) says that a 11.5 dry yeast pack with be enough for 5.5 gallons of 1.056 wort but I just like to over pitch a little.

 

When I use dry yeast unless I'm making a 1.040 beer I pitch two packages. Everything else comes from a slant built up on a stir plate. My lag time is measured in hours either way. If it takes longer you probably need to invest in an O2 stone.

 

^+1 . I use dry all the time with an O2 setup I have never had a lag of more than 16 hours . If I brew a high gravity then it gets two packets 11 grams of yeast are more than enough for a normal gravity 5.5 gallon batch

 

A couple things.

Sticking with your Mendoza line of 1.040, I made a starter last night with two packets. I will be brewing McDole's American Brown (~1.067). Only time will tell, but historically, if I pitch at 6 at night, I can check before bed and see signs of fermentation.

I like the idea of the benefits O2 stone, but I do not like the idea of another investment. I remember a link a while back where a test was done to examine the effectiveness of several methods of introducing 02. If I recall correctly, shaking the hell out of the carboy proved pretty effective. Granted, I enjoy waking up without back pain, so I employ a different method. I have a sanitary stainless (tri-clamp) ball valve hooked up to the kettle, and my brewpot is elevated enough for my carboy to slide right under it. I sanitize a tri-clamp 90, hook it on, place it over the carboy, and let the valve rip. It agitates the wort enough to foam out the top of a 6G better bottle. I can't say it is better than the O2 stone, but it works pretty good, and it is a real time saver.

 

I personally feel that little lag time is just as bad if not worse than long lag. Beer gets some of its flavor and balance during the growth phase if you overpitch that flavor is lost.


Let us know how it come out

 

I don't see how making a starter for Dry Yeast could be detrimental. I looked into this a little a couple weeks ago. According to fermentis, you should have about 69 Billion cells per pack of US05, considering 100% Viability. My understanding is that Commercial brewing practice is to pitch 200-400 billion cells per 5g's of wort. You'd probably have to use at least 5 packs of yeast to acheive the low end of those numbers. Not very practical IMO. I say go for it and make a starter if you like, then just use a portion of the cake for subsequent brews.

If you follow Ray Daniels guidance, which I do, he states that there is 1.5 billion yeast cells per ML of slurry from your yeast cake, that equates to about 44billion per fluid oz. If you take 6-8 oz's of that cake it would give you approx. 264-352 billion cells. Right in line with Commercial practices.

 

Just a word of caution, commercial practices were developed to work for commercial systems and with yeasts that are frequently developed for that specific pitch rate and system.

Also, I would be interested in which commercial breweries that pitch rate is practiced. Some breweries have their production set to generate beer as quickly and efficiently as possible in a repeatable fashion. The depth and complexity of flavor may not be the number one criteria in this situation.

FWIW, I'll stick to a standard pitch rate, try not to stress my yeast, and RDWHAHB.

 

More than depleting the glucose and nutrient reserve the dry yeast have, you use up their lipid reserve and now need to aerate so the yeast can form new lipids to bud.

US-05 is one of the cleanest ale yeasts I have ever used. If you are getting esters from it, it has nothing to do with starters. I would bet you are vastly under-pitching(how?) or fermenting to warm, the latter I almost guarantee.

Anything up to about 1.060 in 5.5 gallons should be ok with 1 packet of re-hydrated yeast, above that, I would do two.
Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator

That all said, do what you want, but I would look elsewhere than cell count if you have ester problems and use dry yeast. Especially at fermentation temp and length of time in primary.

 

Interesting. Your lag times are way too long. If I make a starter from liquid yeast, lag times are from 6 to 12 hours. I also put O2 in the cooled wort. I make a 3 litre starter from a smack pack a couple of days in advance. Its usually foaming like crazy when I pitch it into 11 gallons. I always figured if its going balls to the walls in the starter it will continue to go when pitched.

Just ONE data point. I re hydrated 2 packs of S-05 for a batch. It was the worst beer I have made in a while. It has a solvent aroma and flavor that I can't nail down, but the ferment took 8 days and shouldn't have. I did another batch with S-04, just sprinkled the yeast on the wort and it took off in 12 hours. It was done in 3 to 4 days.

If you are getting lag time in DAYS with a liquid starter, something is wrong.

David

 

I have had incredible luck with dry yeast, which I also switched too after using a bunch of wyeast. My fermentation temps are around 68F and I always have seen active fermentation within 18 hours... I add the pouch of yeast a couple hours before pitching to a small canning jar of water I make up beforehand and shake vigorously several times. I don't add nutrient or fuss with it in any other way and my beers are usually 1.050 - 1.060. I like to keep it as simple as possible. Good luck.