First time brew with RO water

Going to be brewing for the first time with my new upgraded system this weekend, and have a few questions about the process...

Old system: propane heated keggle, with rectangular coleman cooler mash tun.. two 6.5g glass carboy fermenters... no pump/recirc... well water (no water test, but evidence of low PH)

New system: Single electric eBIAB keggle, 5500w heater element, single Speidel 60L fermenter, pump/recirc, RO filtered well water... (4ppm measured in initial test of filter system)

I have things plumbed so that I can use recirculation, but am planning on not doing it that way for my first couple brews.. Just straightforward BIAB...

It's been three years since I brewed, so I'm a bit rusty, and there are several process changes in the new system...

All my old recipes were based on 80% efficiency, double batch sparge, mostly IPAs, some PAs... Typically 22-25lbs of grain...

Gonna start with a basic American IPA based on B3's beer kits... The recipe is for 10g, but I might start with a 9g version until I have an idea of system volumes, etc.

10g AIPA Recipe
21# of 2 row
2.5# 20L Crystal
4.25oz magnum pellets (60 min)
4.25oz cascade pellets (10 min)
4.25oz cascade pellets (1 min)
1 oz cascade leaf (dry hop)
2 packets of Safele S-05 dry yeast

Water Volumes
If I have calculated all things right, there will be 4g of water below the false bottom, and I will need an additional 7.35g for a mash consistency of 1.25qt per pound.. This means a total of 11.35g strike water, which when grain is added (at .32qt per pound), should bring the total volume to 1.9g additional space or 13.25g...

When I remove the grains, I should lose 2.9g of water volume, so I will need to have 4g of modified RO water ready to make up and bring to 12.5g pre boil volume.. I understand that when I squeeze the grains, I will get some of that water back, but plan to have 5-6 gallons ready just in case... Figuring .5-1 gallon of losses, and 60 mins boil time, I should have 10-10.5g of beer at the end of ferment...

Somebody please check my math

Water Additions
So now, I'll be starting with RO water and must add stuff to it to bring it to the proper base water for IPAs...

I bought a pound of calcium chloride pellets, a pound of Calcium Carbonate powder, and 2.5 pounds of acidulate grain..

In reading other threads on water, I came across this post by @ajdelange

Questions Based On The Above Info And Quote
*) Is gypsum, chalk, and Calcium Carbonate all the same thing? Is he talking about adding it to the finished beer? Or should I be adding it to the grains or pre-mash water? If so, how much and when/where?

*) When do I add the Calcium chloride pellets, and do they need time to dissolve? Do I add them to the water before I add the grains? Do I put them in the keggle before I start filling it from the RO filter? Do I just add them to the grains?

*) Do I proportion the calcium chloride between the total volume of strike water and then a proportioned amount in the makeup water I will be setting aside, or do I put it all in the keggle with the initial strike water and just add the RO water after the mash directly from the filter?

*) Does the Sauermalz add any 'sugar' to the recipe that I need to adjust for? I'm assuming I will probably have to recalculate the mash water volumes to account for this additional 1/2# of grain, right? But do I also need to reduce the 2 Row base malts to account for sugars in the Sauermalz?

*) Also, the Sauermalz is just added to the grain bill and crushed with it, right? Or do I add it separately in the mash water and then remove it before adding the mash grains?

After I get through this first mash, I can measure the pre-boil OG and adjust the make up water, boil time, hops additions, etc. to match it.. I should have a better idea of mash efficiency, etc. after this first one....

So mostly, my questions are about water additions, what, when, how, etc... I'm planning on doing a 1 hour mash, measuring gravity every fifteen minutes, stirring lots, and adjusting on the fly... might even add a little mash water if there's room enough...

Once I have all of this information settled, I guess I'm ready to take the new system for a test drive....

 

Dude, DL Brew'n Water and plug that stuff in. It is a grand tool. I love it. Set your water profile to RO, set dilution to 100%, work your water additions first, then put your grain bill in, and go back to the adjustment page to adjust mash pH. Tons of great notes and info in there as well. It will help you determine which parts of your addition go in mash vs. HLT, among other things. You can also target a profile that is tailored for hoppiness or whatever.

You also need to get a nice pH meter and when you add acid, only add half what is called for, test, then add the rest drop at a time - so easy to overshoot acid additions.

 

I tried downloading it before, but it downloads some file that my computer can not open.. I don't have Microsoft office (it's very expensive), and it is apparently required to open that file...

Also, I thought the acid was added by the sauermalz.. it is a grain, so I'm kinda confused about adding it a drop at a time.. Or does it have to be mashed separately and then the resulting liquid added via dropper?

 

Microshaft wants $100 to open that file, and evidently that'snot even a one time fee, but a 'subscription' and you have to keep paying the fee to keep using the program..

Buy MegaUberShaft Office for Home Now

 

I just used Google Sheets to upload and open Brunwater. It works.

Cost: zero.

 

Okay, I googled "Sheets" and was linked to THIS...

It appears to do the work within the browser??
And I don't see how to 'open' a file, just create a new one...

I guess what you're trying to tell me, is this "ajdelange" guy is someone I should not be listening to, and I have to calculate all of this with some program?

I also don't understand how the program is gonna answer my question about whether I am supposed to crush the stuff with my other grains or what... or if it has sugars or not... or if I am to dissolve the calcium chloride pellets in water or add them to my crushed grains, etc..



I mean, I'm mostly asking 'process' questions...

Getting seriously frustrated....

 

Alright found their damn 'file picker'.. but when I go to the folder where the brun water xls file is, it doesn't show up... Evidently 'sheets' doesn't recognize the file type....

Also, I noticed this instruction on their down load page that says it doesn't work in google docs (I'm assuming that is what the 'sheets' thing is).. I used their download link instead, and it still doesn't show up in sheets...

 

You have to "upload" brunwater from your local PC to the sheet. To save it locally you have to "download" it.

Just a second, let me check specifics....

OK, I'm back.

On the file menu click "open"

Then that should open a window that looks like this:



Click "Select a file from your computer" then open it the normal way.

That should get it in there.

NOW, BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE, make sure you can save it back to your computer. Use a different name so it won't overwrite the original. MAKE SURE YOU DO THIS BEFORE YOU MAKE A LOT OF CHANGES TO THE SPREADSHEET only to find you can't figure out how to save it to your local PC.

You can also use Google Drive if you want to save it there.

 

I did all that, but the file doesn't show up in the file selector... I went like five times to the folder to make sure it is there, and it is.. but when I try to open it exactly as you said.. it doesn't show up in the folder....

Today has been a POS day.. From the moment I got up, to the moment I went to work, to the moment I got home, and everything since.. I've had the everything turns to crap touch today....

I think I better just go to bed and see if tomorrow is better...

 

He is someone you SHOULD listen to. He, along with Martin Brungard (the creator of Brunwater), are extremely knowledgeable about brewing water chemistry. The water chemistry primer by AJ is a good starting point for water additions for pH adjustment, and a general water profile. Brunwater is a great tool if you want to take it further, but it is not required. If you follow the guidelines in AJ's primer, I'm pretty sure you will have good results.

 

NO.... Get some gypsum. You want that for Sulfate. You don't want chalk/calcium carbonate for a pale ale. You want to add all your additions to your water...... For a pale ale, here is the simplest, basic thing you can do. For every 5 gallons of water you use (mash and sparge water) add 1 tsp. of gypsum and 1/2 tsp of Calcium Chloride. Add it all as you are heating up the water, and stir it in - it will dissolve.

It might add a bit. 1-2% of sauermalz will be plenty if you are using all RO water and the above additions of gypsum and CaCl. You just throw it in with your other grain and grind it like the other grain, throw it all in together and mix in to mash water.

Personally, I use lactic acid. Many people use phosphoric acid. Both are more consistent than trying to use acid malt/sauermalz..... in this beer, with the above additions, I would probably use about 1ml lactic acid per 5 gallons and that would get you in the 5.3(something) range for pH.

That will get you in the ball park for this brew. As others have mentioned, B'run water is a great tool if you can get it on your computer. There are others as well that are good too and will give you a consistent way to measure things from one batch to the next.

 

That's reassuring!
(I was getting pretty bummed)

Well then, can 'you' answer my basic process questions regarding 'how' to follow his primer?

 

Thanks... So the Calcium Carbonate was a waste of money and I needed gypsum instead?

I could swear that I read he said to use the Calcium Carbonate too.. but it's all getting so dang confusing right now, I might be wrong about that too...

I was hoping to get through a couple of brews using the KISS principle before getting all deep into the chemistry of things... But I was starting to feel that was not going to be possible...

 

Gypsum is calcium sulfate. Chalk is calcium carbonate. Throw the chalk away. Chalk adds calcium is brings mash pH up. If you need to raise your mash pH use baking soda. With an IPA, you won't need to raise your mash pH.

You add water additions to your mash and sparge before the grains. Easiest way IMO is to get the total water you need the night before and add the total amount of additions to that water.

1/2lb acid malt would mean you have 25lb grist. Is that correct? If you are using the primer, you would use 2% of the total grist which I'd assume is usually around .2 to .3lb. May add 1 point to your OG. The primer is just an estimate for everyone. If you really want to get into water, you need a pH meter. That is the only way to actually figure out how much acid you need (if any).

Absolutely not! AJ and Martin are the two people on this forum that know the most about water. The primer was created to make water adjusting easy for people that don't want to get into it. If you want to get more into your water, then you need to use a program. If you have a specific water profile that you want for your IPA, you can't just add 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons. You need to enter your water profile (with RO it will most likely be all 0s), you need to enter your grains and you need to determine how much CaCl and gypsum you need to add to get to the water profile you want. Then you need to adjust the mash pH after those additions which if you do need to lower it that is when you use acid. That is why everyone is telling you to use Bru'n Water (which was created by Martin). Using a program like that will help you get your water exactly what you want instead of just being generic.

 

Well.... it isn't necessarily a waste of money - but it is a waste of money for this beer Calcium Sulfate = Gypsum.... maybe that is what you were thinking.

Like I said - the KISS method for now is 100% RO water, 1 tsp of Gypsum, 1/2 tsp of CaCl for every 5 gallons of water you want to treat. That will get you a decent pale ale profile to start with. You are basically looking at 2-4 ounces of acid malt per 10 pounds of grain as far as the sauermalz..... so, not much of that. It is not going to change your gravity in a significant way.

 

+1 - once you get your new system going, using a water program is definitely a better, more precise way to get where you want to go with your beers. Plus, different styles of beer call for different profiles..... so, at a certain point, it is not always as simple as throwing in minerals by the tsp. Especially if you want to dial in certain recipes, etc. Nothing wrong with simple to start with though - breaking in a new system after a brewing lay-off will be enough to deal with.

 

That's 'me' (for now)....

I have enough going on with all the process changes I made in this new brewery compared to what I was doing before.....

 

I always send this to friends just getting into water adjustments and want to use RO. It's a decent cheat sheet. I found it here somewhere a few years ago...

 

Someone above said that gypsum is calcium sulfate... But I see sulfate in your picture as a separate column from Gypsum..

Are we talking about a different sulfate? If so, what?

 

Epsom Salt = Magnesium Sulfate (Mg Sulfate or MgSO4)
Gypsum = Calcium Sulfate (Ca Sulfate or CaSO4)
So both of these contribute to "Sulfate"

You can generally ignore MgSO4 since Gypsum tends to supply all the sulfate you need. When additional sulfate is desired you can use Epsom Salt to increase it, just be careful, you don't want too much Mg, it's a laxative.

 

Are you seeing my wife?

 

Nice.... that is a great starting point for beginners...... even for people with a lot of experience for that matter. I might have to pass that on myself.

**I would focus on the "color" profiles more than some of the historical "city" profiles.

 

I'd toss that. You do not want chalk (calcium carbonate) in any water you synthesize and you do not want any gypsum in Pilsen water for sure (a little in the water for German Pilsners perhaps). You do not need, and in general, do not want any magnesium in the water for most beers from the flavor perspective. If you believe that it improves longevity put in as much as you can stand. In the Bru'n water profiles, from which this was evidently derived, it appears that it was decided that certain levels of calcium, magnesium, sulfate and chloride are required and when those didn't balance electrically the remainder was made up with bicarbonate at pH 8.3. Apparently, then, the preparer of the chart strove to hit these mineral profile using calcium carbonate not recognizing that it is insoluble without acid. The general approach fails to recognize that a working brewer will remove most of the bicarbonate either by replacing it with more sulfate or chloride (or perhaps phosphate or lactate) which leaves the calcium level alone or by precipitating it which takes out an equivalent amount of calcium.

In some cases a bit of alkalinity will be required to offset the acidity of dark and roast malts. In these cases sodium bicarbonate is a good bet unless and until sodium becomes a problem. Lime (calcium hydroxide) can also be used as it contributes no sodium but each mEq of it absorbs 6/7 to 9/10 of an equivalent of protons as opposed to a full mEq for NaHCO3 and it takes a while for pH to settle out (for the same reason it absorbs < 1 mEq/mEq i.e. the calcium/phytin reaction).

In general you can start with 2.5 grams of calcium chloride per 5 gallons RO period. Brew the beer and then taste it while experimenting with small additions of a solution of gypsum added to the glass. You may, or may not, depending on your personal tastes, the style of the beer, the hops cultivar used etc., decide that you want to add sulfate in future beers in which case work up to it.

 

I know that people like to get extremely precise with their additions but I've been very happy with imprecise generalizations. For BIAB 5 gallon batches, I start with 8.5 gallons of RO and dose 4 grams CaCl (calcium chloride), 1 gram MgS04 (Epsom salt) and 2ml of 88% lactic acid. That's for every beer I make and the only thing I vary based on beer style is the Calcium Sulfate (gypsum, CaS04). If it's hoppy I use 6-7 grams. If it's malty or balanced I use 3-4 grams. I've occasionally skipped the lactic acid in higher gravity browns and dark stouts without any pH issues.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. When I give out this sheet, I tell people to ignore the City profiles at the bottom. That eliminates all the chalk additions from the page. I should have mentioned that in my last post.

I also am not a big fan of magnesium, and I do think the sheet shows those values too high.. A little here, a little there if wanted.

Overall, I do think it's a decent sheet to get your feet wet in water adjustments. Many people need a visual and recommended amounts when learning about water. A path through the unknown, if you will. Learn, and adjust to taste as necessary. (Something I'm positive you already know. )

I would definitely like if someone was to redo and improve on this sheet for newer brewers. Someone who knows far more about water than me, and is highly respected in this community. I don't know where to find someone like that though. Maybe someone in this thread... I dunno.

 

Sorry no comment on the water.

23.5 lb grain bill? Consider a ratchet pulley to let the bag hang and drain over the kettle....with larger batches, it's all about "bag management"

cheers!

 

edit...never mind.

 

LMAO! Well, I am getting to that age and experiencing some problems in that way ya know... Maybe I can call beer 'my medicine'

 

LOL... I learned long ago not to see 'anybody's wife'

 

You lost me on everything prior to this...

'THIS' I like! I'm not striving to become the next hit craft brewer in NorCal, just make good Ales that I like to drink and would not be ashamed sharing with friends.....

I like IPAs.. I brew them almost exclusively. Occasionally, I'll brew a light session pale ale (Like Hause's HPA) for those that are not into the IPAs...

In the future I might brew a IIPA or a Kolsch ale... But probably will rarely if ever venture outside of those beers... Unless my tastes change, which is possible, but it will be a while... There's a lot of things you can do with an ale to get creative though....

So, I like this 'add this one ingredient' recipe, and add a little of this after the fact to the beer to see if you like it approach...

In the past, I have had trouble with hops utilization... While building this brewery, I have learned that altitude affects that and I should probably increase the hops additions by a few percentage points...

So between the precise control I have of mash temp now, the info about hops utilization, and good water, I'm hoping that the hops utilization issue won't be an issue anymore....

 

:beard:

 

@ajdelange

Just to be clear, I can use Calcium Chloride 'only' to mash and boil the wort, and then 'after' the beer is done, fermented, carbonated, etc... I can add a little gypsum to the glass and see if I like it, and start adjusting from there?



If I decide I like it, and how much I want in the beer, can it be added at 'any' point in the process... ie, Pre Mash, post mash/pre-boil, pre-ferment, post ferment/pre carbonate, post carbonate?

 

Gonna be doing my second batch on the new system tomorrow... Had to make some upgrades and changes before I was ready to try again...

Anyways, I picked up some lactic acid to use instead of the acidulated grain so that I can put a bit more grain in and need all the space I can get.......

How much lactic acid do I want to put in my RO base water per five gallons (or per gallon)?

 

That is dependent on mash volume, grain bill and any salts you plan to add to your mash if targeting a water profile. Utilizing Brun Water should make the estimate easy to get in the ballpark of your target mash pH.

 

Okay, thanks...

I'm gonna post the entire recipe in a bit and my calculations for how much water I need, and try asking again.....

Gonna crush the grains tonight and make the water tonight, for brewing tomorrow....

 

can't use bru'n water... Never got it to work on my computer and could never get an app to work to load it..

 

LibreOffice is a free and open source office suite, roughly equivalent to MS Office that should open Bru'n water fine.

You can download it at https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/ and use it as you would Microsoft Office. (It'll ask for a donation, but it'll start the download without you touching that form)

 

Yes.

If it changes flavor in the glass then it is clear that it will change it anywhere it is added. However if you add a calcium salt to the mash or the boil it will result in a pH reduction. If you add it on the cold side it won't so you might want to take that into consideration as you might either want or not want that pH reduction. That said it is also, IMO at least, to just treat the water in the HLT and be done with it!

 

Pre Boil Volume is 13.5 Gallons... As my new fermenter has a 1.5G dead space in it, and I am trying to end up with 11 Gallons into the kegs, I am shooting for a 12.5 Gallon batch.. Too big to mash it all in my eBIAB system at the moment, so I plan to make up the OG difference by adding DME....

Grain bill is 23 lbs... meaning that @ 1.25 qt per lb I need 7.25 Gallons for the mash, plus 4 gallons of dead space under the false bottom... 11.25 gallons for initial mash... Figure about 4 gallons for grain absorption (which I'll get much of it back when I squeeze the bag), and 6 gallons for make up water, which I will use to rinse/sparge the grains... (11.25-4 = 7.25 G and 13.5 Gallon target pre boil volume minus 7.25 Gallons, leaves 5.75 gallons make up water)..

So I need to make about 17 gallons of water in advance....

So, considering the recipe I posted a screenshot of below, the type of beer, the grains, etc. and the water volume, what should I add to the RO water to bring it to the ideal base profile?

I will also be oxygenating (in line) for the first time, so any advice as to what the maximum and minimum time I should inject the oxygen (pressure of 4 lpm is the plan) would be appreciated... Oh, I'm at 4200 foot elevation if that affects the oxygenation at all...

Will be using yeast nutrient for the first time too, and I'm not sure how or when to add it...

 

Tried installing it several times, but keeps failing saying it can't find some resource file or another