Exploring "no chill" brewing

I have no-chilled my last 9 of the 10 beers I have brewed and not a single one turned out poorly. I started to use Irish Moss again for the past 3 beers and found that the clarity of the beers improved quite a lot. I even made an IPA for my second last batch and it is possibly the best beer I have made to date, though it is still young so it remains to be seen if the hop flavour dulls.

Honestly I cannot see any advantage to chilling anymore, except in situations where I need to pitch the yeast the same day I brew.

 

I chill my ales because its easy for me to get them down to pitching temp with my re-circulating ice water bucket. My lagers I chill to about 90-100ºF then put them in my freezer overnight to get them to 45ºF to pitch in the morning. No negative effects.

 

I've been trying to figure out how to go to 10 gallons batches without a lot of new and expensive gear. I have done 2 consecutive/simultaneous (I know, that's sort of a conflict of terms) same day 5 gallon batches but there was a lot of demand on my only big pot and it was a very long day! No chill may be just the ticket. Plus, when transferring to carboys the two batches could be blended for more consistency. So I shopped containers and ran into this "Quoral" stuff. Baritainers® Jerry Can | U.S. Plastic Corp. Nice prices and size variety. Sounds like a possible improvement over HDPE. I found this spec sheet that mentions fruit juice and various alcohols. http://bppolymers.com/uploads/BPP_CHEMICAL_TEST_SHEET_09.28.09.pdf I was wondering if any of you see any a reason NOT to fill these with hot wort. Has anyone tried these yet that's willing to share their thoughts? Thanks...this is a great thread!

 

Thanks for the link! Looks like a plan! SPECIFICATIONS:
UN X rated Jerry Can with black screw closure. Closure neck: DIN 50 or DIN 60 with tamper-evident system. HDPE maximum temperature: 248°F (120°C) and minimum temperature: -148°F (-100°C). Not autoclavable.

 

If the handle is hollow, make sure you get the whole thing cleaned out thoroughly. That's the usual spot for nastieis to grow if you're not careful in cleaning and sanitizing.

I use the 6 gallon winpak from US Plastic HERE Ferment in the same container by using an 11.5 stopper with airlock.

 

After reading through the entire thread, I am intrigued by the above container and its potential for both a no-chill and fermentation vessel. Has anyone other than ipscman used the "3 inch opening 5 gallon carboy" to chill and/or ferment in? Does the fact that this particular container may not create an air-tight seal as do the winpaks mean that an infection is more likely to occur in the chilling wort? I am very interested in moving to no-chill brewing as a means to trim some time and equipment from my brew days, and this container seems ideal, but for the fact that it may not seal as tightly as do the "standard" winpaks.

Thanks!

 

@ Brewsday - When I moved to 10 gallon all grain batches is when I decided to go no-chill. It is awesome!

@ Adman - If you cannot get an airtight seal I would be worried because to sanitize the entire inside with the hot wort you flip the cube on all of its various sides and if the lid was prone to leaking that would be an issue.

 

If I promise to read this thread through, would anyone tell me how the vacuum pulled when the wort shrinks, might be overcome? I'd like to go in a cornie keg for fermentation, but am not sure it wouldn't become dented. The only thing I can think of, is to put a QD and hose on the gas post and put some kind of filter on that.

I could use a flexible plastic container and pour once its cooled, but it'd be simpler if I could go direct to the fermentor.

 

From what I hear corny kegs have no problem with the vacuum. I use cubes and siphon from them to the fermenter the next day, the only issue being aerating the wort the next day.

Make sure you get HDPE if you go with cubes or winpacks.

If you do winpacks many people just pitch and ferment in those the next day.

 

I did a no-chill test batch recently using a corny keg that was sealed up except for a blow off tube attached to the gas-in post on the keg. The wort was easily at 200-degrees F. when transferred to the corny keg. No denting from pressure / temperature decrease whatsoever.

 

I started with the 3 inch and then went to the win pack. I didn't like that there wasn't a tight seal in the 3 inch. My beer seems better with the winpack but I've only been doing this for about 2 years.

 

I did a no-chill batch in a Sanke keg (which seals much better from the start than a corny, due to the way they are designed) and had no denting or problems, other than the beer not being as good (but I am sure it was because of my yeast and fermentation temperature (experimental pressure fermentation done at room temperature). I even experimented with how to aerate. I used a sanitized coke bottle with the bottom cut off and attached that to the beer port on a Sanke tap connector (gas port closed off). I filled this with my yeast and simply pushed the lever to tap the keg. When I did, it sucked the yeast slurry in and only had a minimum of glugging from the rest of the equalized vacuum before I untapped. Then I hooked up my O2 directly to the beer port and retapped (this time with a spunding valve attached to the gas port). I charged the keg up to 10 psi with pure O2 and untapped. I rolled the keg around for a couple of minutes every 15 minutes or so for an hour, then I threw on my spunding setup and let her go. Had activity within a couple of hours, relieving any excess pressure over 10 psi. If I had only had this in a temperature controlled environment, I could honestly say with 100% certainty it was the temperatures fault that I didn't like this beer. I still drank all 15 gallons of it though .

 

Thats what I want to do WortM, no-chill, oxygenate by addition of O2 and shaking, then a pressurized ferm. I see what you mean about cornies and vacuum, set up bass ackwards for that.

A blowoff wouldn't work because it would suck the liquid into the keg. Really I suppose if I put a cotton ball or two in the end of some tubing, it would prevent dust from being sucked in and should work for keeping the wort sanitary as the pressure equalizes during cooling. Or maybe a reverse airlock in a jar with the air bubbling through some vodka and into the jar before being sucked back into the keg.

Edited to add: read the entire thread as promised and see that people charge the corny keg with CO2 to counter the vacuum, hitting it with 21psi and then "topped up" later. Genius! I suppose the only drawback (aside from the whole hoppy beer thing) is that the yeast cake will have more trub in it and need more washing to recover some yeast for the next batch.

 

I would love to pitch into my winpacks but unfortunately they are too small. I may have a quarter gallon of head space! Lol need to find some 6 gallon or larger winpacks

 

For those of you leery about trying no-chill....

Ed Wort's Kolsch. Single vessel full volume no sparge eBIAB, no-chill, in the cube for 3 weeks before pitching yeast, nothing but a teaspoon of irish moss at 10 minutes left in boil:

 

Here you go.
6 Gallon White Winpak® 18 3/4" H x 11 1/4" Dia | U.S. Plastic Corp.

 

That sure is purty-full!

 

awesome, thanks!

also, how does everyone clean their winpacks out? i rinse them a few times with hot water, then fill with oxyclean and hot water solution and leave them till i'm ready to use again, then rise a few times with hot water....
does that seem right? or should i be doing anything different? it sure is time consuming and i'm not sure i'm saving any water vs chilling lol

 

I rinse out everything that will come freely, then fill with water and OxyClean, let sit for a couple hours, then flip over to get any gunk off the top, also for a couple hours. Drain, rinse, and let dry.

 

Dump your oxy into a bucket and use again.The cubes usually aren't all that grotty.You can easily reuse the oxy a few times.I starsan rinse as well but probably not necesssary considering the temp of the wort.

 

The cubes can get "grotty" if you ferment in them, or sometimes if you cube hop.

 

houston... we have a problem...
so i've been having this problem with a "plastic" taste in my beers. so i bought water, swapped to new tubing, still no go, till i cleaned out my cube and noticed a smell, so i took a big whiff of it... guess what? smells like effing plastic, like chemicals and plastic, and i've been cleaning them out, letting them dry etc... but i do not want to ruin another batch of beer. so i'm dumping those for now this sucks!
so for tomorrow at least, im' going to put the lid on my kettle, throw a starsan soaked shirt on it, and let it cool that way. hopefully we will see if this helps anything!

 

What kind of cube are you using? I haven't tried no chill yet, but I have a 6 gallon aquatainer and a 6 gallon winpak I was going to use. I definitiely don't want plastic beer.

 

the 5 gallon winpacks that everyone uses.
i'm going to run a test this week though between 4 different ways to chill and capden tablets though, so i'll know more of its to do with my water, chloramines, the winpacks and such.
Could have been multiple other things... i was mostly drunken posting haha, so i'll have more info later this week i hope! when time allows

 

I have never had any plastic flavor with many batches cooling overnight in 6-gallon winpaks.

 

I know a lot of people use the winpacks with success, but I still don't like the idea of putting boiling wort into plastic.

I have opted for leaving the wort in the SS pot with the lid on and Starsan towels wrapped around the rim. The whole thing then covered with a plastic bag.

This is working great, but I never go more than 3 days before pitching.

I brewed a Kolsch 2 friday's ago, pitched on Sunday @ 61 degrees with a real wort starter, fermented @ 63 and raised to 65 by Wednesday. I tasted the gravity sample on Friday. The beer finished @ 1.010 and is already very tasty! 5 more gallons to the kegs!

 

I've used Aquatainer's for quite a few No Chill batches without an issue.

 

I had my first No-Chill mishap this week. I opened a 6-gallon Winpak and found mold in the cap and on the throat of the Winpak.

Last month when I filled the Winpak I noticed a big nick on the threaded part, under the cap. I ensured that it was air-tight and thought that was good enough. Apparently there was a slow air leak at that spot.

Dumping 5 gallons of wort.....

 

I let the wort cool to 190F and then drain to the Winpak. No problems.

 

Boil up some water in your HLT.

Run it into your cube, let sit to chill, taste the water. If it has the plastic taste you are describing then it is probably the cube (provided your tubing is not also plastic when you do this - do you use silicon?).

You can either:

1. Discard the cube and get another.
2. Run hot water through in the same manner and repeat until the resulting water tastes like water.
3. Abandon no chill brewing.

I'd go 2, 1 and then 3. Stupid question from an Aussie - are the winpaks HDPE, recycle no.2?

 

5 Litres or less (sorry for metric) of boiling water + sodium percarbonate (which I believe is the same as oxyclean) lid on (make sure it is sealed) shake furiously, allow steam to release by backing the lid off a touch. Re-tighten, turn upside down (because I ferment in my cubes and have a krausen ring 3/4 the way up) and let sit till I need to use again.

Much less water than a chiller. If that doesn't work, some raw rice thrown in and shaken about with the above suggestion should scrub the inside for you.

 

I have done several no chill batches and really like the option. For those who have not seen it, BYO's Mr Wizard gives his view:
"...My personal preference is to cool wort using a wort chiller either in the kettle with an immersion chiller or en route to the fermenter with a plate or shell-in-tube chiller. I suppose if I were brewing on a desert island and only had the no-chill method I would make do, but neither one of us is stranded on an island."
http://www.byo.com/stories/issue/article/issues/290-janfeb-2012/2512-debunking-bitterness-no-chill-brewing-mr-wizard

 

I saw that......more "advice" from an "expert" that has obviously never tried the technique.

 

Seems like the article has concerns with DMS.
The Kolsch I just transfered come out great and there is no sign of DMS.
I brewed on Friday, pitched on Sunday and fermented cool.
It's funny how people will jump to conclusions without even trying something.

Bull

 

Putting together a presentation for my homebrew club on BIAB + no-chill brewing, so my mind has been on the subject again, and I've been doing some reading.

One interesting thing I've learned is that DMS is present at some level in all beers, in fact, it's a pretty key flavor component in many lagers and lighter brews. Obviously though, it can be overdone. For example, a lot of people fault Rolling Rock for high DMS levels.... then again, since they're a pretty large commercial brew operation, it's obviously there on purpose.

Most DMS is driven off in the boil, but a lesser amount is indeed created as long as the wort is above 160f or so. Here's a link with lots more info-- the chart is especially interesting, but it's not clear how scientific it is. At any rate, it's illustrative and certainly is borne out in my own experience.

Bottom line, as most on this thread will attest, it's just not likely to be a problem, and certainly the tradeoff of equipment, wastewater, and PITA makes it a clear choice for me. And, in the case that DMS is over the top, it can be scrubbed out by C02 in the keg-- just attach the gas to the liquid tube and let it run for a bit.

 

Nice post. You seem to grasp the difference between what has been written and passed around as "fact" and what happens in reality. I have been practising no-chill for almost a year now, with cube times ranging from hours to weeks, and have not experienced any issues with DMS. Of course, YMMV.

 

Its funny how the "experts" who discredit No Chill brewing because of DMS concerns have never actually tried it properly. They either dismiss it out of hand (like Mr. Wizard), or they perhaps tried a less-than-ideal variant on it (like just pouring hot wort in an ale pale and waiting 3 days to pitch).

What really bugs me about the Mr. Wizard thing is that his answer reads like he's done No chill before and found DMS in his beer, which is not the case. He's using his brewing dogma (which is mostly correct) to write-off a practice that conflicts with that dogma.

I can't stand it when "experts" (in any field) hear about a new technique or process, and immediately discredit it because it doesn't fit their mold. In the case of No Chill, all Mr. Wizard had to do would be to Google it for 10 minutes to see the HUNDREDS of posts from brewers saying "I do No Chill and have ZERO DMS issues." That alone should have given any expert with an open mind a chance to pause and perhaps research further or (heaven forbid) actually try a batch and see.

 

All awesome points. Not to nit pick but I don't like hearing people say that No-chill is in anyway a new idea. Aside from it being the norm in australia for many years, how do you think historically beer has been chilled? I see chillers as the innovation and in no way a bad thing but it's funny how in 100 years(?) people can forget how it has been done for thousands.

I love no-chill, I just wish I learned about before I started brewing instead of wasting time and money on building chillers.

 

i've just been using my brew kettle as the chiller, has been working wonderfully so far, i've skipped the cubes.
Brew in the AM, for the flame out, i just soak a shirt or towell in starsan, throw the lid ontop and put the towell/shirt over the top and let it cool till night time, then bam! pitch and all is well.

 

On the subject of DMS, I WILL say I just brewed a 95% pilsner/5% toasted oats blonde ale (OG 1.048 FG 1.011) just to see what the DMS levels were like.

Not gonna lie, there's substantial DMS in this beer... I'd call it out of style for a blonde, but not really sure if it'd be out of style for a German or American lager. However, this weekend it won second place light hybrid in a local comp (just 7 days after brewing). I haven't gotten the scoresheets back yet to see if DMS is mentioned.

My next step in investigating no-chill DMS will be to buy a couple commercial examples of DMS-appropriate styles and do a side by side tasting. I will also be bubbling CO2 through a growler of the blonde, which I've read can effectively scrub DMS out of finished beer. If it works, that would be a super-easy fix for the few light, mostly pilsner styles where DMS is likely to be an issue, at least in competition.

I've brewed abou 10 no-chill batches so far, and this is the first DMS heavy brew... and I was doing it on purpose. There are lots of other variables at play, especially malt type and target style. What's more, DMS discussions in the brewing lit are often directed at an audience of high-adjunct, light lager brewers- styles that homebrewers, if I may generalize, don't gravitate towards. Not that I don't love I nice, crisp pilsner.

My take is still that if you are looking to simplify your brew day or avoid incorporating new equipment and processes, No Chill a great option with few downsides. No brew rig is perfectly suited for all styles and brewing techniques-- for example, temperature controlled HERMS/RIMS set-ups with ported kettles can make things like decoction mashes and effective whirlpooling a real challenge.

No Chill as I practice it (combined with stovetop BIAB for maximum minimalism and simplicity) makes decoctions and whirlpooling a breeze! Everything is a trade-off, and I'm surprised at the skeptical tone that still greets practical approaches like this one. I'd bet money that if your average mid-size craft breweries could drop their 30 barrel batches to pitching temps in 24 hours without the energy, effort, water, and equipment required for rapid forced chilling, followed by the high pitching rates that are easy for homebrewers to achieve, we'd see a lot more of them doing it.