Experiment idea... No boil AG beer???

Ok, so I have been lacking in brewing lately due to my crazy school schedule. one of my classes is a technical research course where I am doing a paper on "green" proprietary technology in brewing and its ability to increase profits for breweries. So I have been reading alot of energy waste in breweries. This got me thinking...

According the the brewiki and several other sources, the wort boil is mainly for extraction of AA from hops as well as the flavor/aroma compounds. other reasons include reduction of DMS and proteins, BUT this is only very necessary for certain types of beers... darker ales and strong flavored ales have a higher DMS threshold when it comes to perception.

So here is what I am proposing. I use a no sparge RIMs setup, temperature controlled with my toolbox.

What if: I mash in the grist with the exact water needed to collect my 5 gallons, after absorbtion and deadspace.

In a coffee mug, cover my bittering hops with boiling water for 5 minutes and add to the mash.

Raise to mash out temp and add my aroma hops and recirc for 10 minutes.

The wort coming out of my mashtun is crystal clear after recirc/heating with my RIMs. I would drain through my CFC and right into the fermenter. Then dry hop 7 days in.

Post fermentation I would filter for chill haze and other proteins not removed/destroyed at boil.

My initial thought on recipes would be an ESB, or maybe a double ESB (ala LH Chainsaw)

I know I know.. I will probably get totally flamed for this, but I thought it would be worth trying to see if a quality beer can be made with a reduction in energy costs. If it would work on a small scale, could be modified for larger scale brewing as well.

Thoughts appreciated - be gentle (I just came up with this idea 15 minutes ago... not too much thought put into it)

 

Have you heard of Lactobacillus? Barley is lousy with Lactobacillus, Pediococcus, and probably some Acetobacteria too. You'd probably end up making a very sour vinegar.

Although, if you pasteurized the wort first, that would probably not be an issue.

 

Also for those screaming about contamination (just thought of this as a was smoking after the first post). pitching a big starter and sanitizing procedures should take care of most.

This is ultimately for a beer that would consumed quick and young.

 

Nateo - I wasn't thinking it would be around long enough for something like that... but I understand where ur coming from.

I don't know what it would take to kill that, mayne a higher mashout temp.. or draining and do a sanitizing recirc at 180 for 10 or 15?

 

Flash pasteurization happens at 160F and 165F, so I think mashout would kill most of the spoilage bugs.

If you make it, I'd be interested to know how it comes out.

 

Yeah, I might have to try this sometime soon. I have cut my AG time down to 3-3.5 hours with my setup, this might make it even quicker. 1.5 hours including cleanup - I might brew every day

 

Aside from contamination issues DMS will be your other big issue. It actually does have a relatively low threshold before showing up in the taste of your beer. I suspect it would dominate a brew you didn't boil. But could be worth a shot.

 

I really want to believe that the mash pasteurizes the wort but I'm just not 100% sure. Therefore, I think boiling for 10 minutes is kinda necessary.

And with no boil, do you think there might be problems with haze because you don't get a hot break?

And finally, I don't think your hop method will get the bitterness required. I don't know the exact minimum temp for isomerization to occur, but I believe it's in the 170s.

 

Hop oil.

 

After quick google search many sources are saying that beer is pasteurized at 160 degrees F. This would be handled at the mashout phase since I will raise the temp to 170 for 10-15 minutes as I usually do when mashout recirc is happening.

I thought about this and I don't really have an answer, but I thought I would try it first and if there is the subsequent batch would be filtered to reduce. I will also be adding gelatin to help clear before kegging.

The biggest issue I thought of was the bittering hops, these will be steeped in boiling water and then added to the mash. I think that should be enough to get the effect... if not it is something I would have to play with... Maybe a psuedo decoction with run off during the recirc and then add back in.

 

I thought the hot break was to get enzymes that you didn't want, out of your wort? With the idea be improving flavor? Still I think may try a gallon batch and just dry hop the crap out of it and drink it quick.

I like your brain. Good idea.

 

If you're talking about improving brewery energy efficiency, I would think that using potable water to clean all the equipment would waste far more energy than boiling the wort.

Any ideas on "water-less" sanitation?

 

Autoclave

 

UV light?

Sometimes used as a final step in water treatment plants, to kill anything that made it through the rest. Probably requires a fairly clear liquid to make sure it penetrates and kills all the bugs, but you could run your wort across a plate or something, so it spreads out in a thin layer that you could expose to the UV.

 

I will still end up with warm water from the output of my CFC, I will use that for cleaning. Divided in half with part mixed in oxyclean the other half to rinse with. No boil means no kettle to clean so all I would really have to clean is my MLT (a 48qt cube cooler) the manifold, and the tubing.. all of that will be done by emptying, rinsing, and recircing through the RIMs box.

 

No boil AG beer? Check out Berliner Weisse. Traditionally, it's an unboiled low-alcohol wheat beer though most of the recipes I see call for a traditional boil and then a lacto culture. Napoleon was quite fond of it. I know it's not the same style of beer but it looks like you want to use a similar technique so it should help you find a good starting point.

 

Awesome... thanks for the info. I will definitely be taking a look at that

 

hal, i like that. the idea of a decoction that is. i could see a solid Am. wheat beer being made from this if someone actually finds this to be a viable homebrewing method (as in, a decent beer is produced).

decoction mash w/ recirc @170, hops and all, then directly to the fermenter with a big starter (1-2L).

i would love to hear how this experiment goes, as my testicles do not posses the mass required to put these theories into practice.

 

Fascinating. Do it!

 

Edit: Here's the thread I was thinking of.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/big-hop-flavor-1-3-hops-55721/

You're going to have to use a lot more hops than you would normally to get the bitterness. The volume of wort being boiled impacts the bitterness.

 

Doesn't a solid boil drive the DMS out of your wort?

Also, how would you cool this wort, no boiling aside?

 

It does, but the styles I am looking at for this process would be ones that are less susceptible to DMS off flavors (low adjunct, darker ales, english ales mostly) and a quick vigorous fermentation with a large starter will also reduce the DMS through CO2 production. I am also working on plans to build a CO2 system for use prior to aeration to remove more DMS and then let the yeast finish the rest.

The wort will move straight from MLT through my CFC and into the fermenter.

 

have you thought about using first wort hopping?

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/the-first-wort-hop-beer-brewing-techniques/

 

FWIW, a lot of Berliner Weisse recipes are no-boil. Of course, with that style the lacto contamination is desired.

 

Why steep the hops at all? Couldn't you simply things further by just adding them to the mash? Is there a reason why you can't?

 

The concern with steeping them would be the amount of AA extracted from the hops. I need to read a bit more on the isomerization(sp?) of AA from hops to figure out what temps the acids breakdown and become soluble for the best usage.

 

Basically this is what I would be doing, only adding in hops at different stages like you would with the boil.

 

Maybe to push along your bitterness, you could no chill your wort. After mashing out, drain to sanitized cube with hops in then let slowly chill over night.

Cheers
Joe

 

Joe - I thought about that also, but for DMS reduction you really need to chill quick. not an issue if you do a full boil, but I don't want that to change the outcome of the experiment.

I think I am going to work on recipe formulation and try to do this the weekend after next. If anyone has a good ESB recipe please let me know.

 

Did you do it yet!?!?

 

What about just boiling through hot break and increasing the bittering hops. Or using hop oils for bittering, 10 min hop addition for flavor and flame out addition for aroma?
You still reduce the energy used to boil for an hour. JMO

 

Not a bad idea... I will probably check that out if the original experiment doesn't work.

I haven't done it yet, got slammed with a test in linear algebra and integrated circuits this week, spent the weekend studying for those. Shooting for Thanksgiving I think, 3 batches - 1 no boil, and 2 standard no sparge.

 

Glad to see this thread is still going and the responses are helpful and positive. I saw your initial post and the second post about lacto, and thought that this really interesting discussion would take a turn for the negative (like often happens when someone proposes a new idea on here, though usuallly those aren't very well thought out.) I think this has some merit, maybe not on the homebrew scale (at least not for a basic trukeyfryer and cooler homebrewer), but could see this on a commercial level.



Now get you ass back to work on it.

 

I second bullinachinashop...if your are looking at energy reduction, you don't HAVE to go all the way to zero boil. Although it appears there may be other benefits to doing so. Definitely keep a short boil in your back pocket as I guarantee you can generate some mad energy savings through a reduction in boil time to 15 min from 60 or 90 min.

 

Let me say again. Hop oil.

 

This is interesting. I'm actually not sure sanitation would be the biggest problem; few bacteria can survive mash temps very well. You may consider using campden tablets if you want to be really safe, though personally I'd rather not.
Problems may include hopping issues; Hermit's suggestion of hop oil is solid if this turns out to be a problem. Just using more hops in a small amount of water would probably work well on a small scale, but try to find a brewery enthusiastic about having to buy twice the hops for their beer. If you want aroma hops, you might consider dry-hopping.
Another, probably smaller, concern is that you miss out on any caramelization that takes place in the kettle. For ordinary boil times this is minimal, but you may consider adding a touch more caramel or other specialty malt to compensate. Or you could add a bit of brewer's caramel.

 

There have been late addition IPA recipes on here before, where you didn't add any hops until 20 min. Sure, you needed 3 or 4 times the amount of hops to get the bitterness you needed in an IPA, but you also got massive flavor and aroma.

I'd be interested in trying this with only a 20 min boil. A nice experiment would be to make the same recipe, boil one 60 min, boil the other 20 min. If this would turn out a good product, it would make a convenient house IPA.

 

Well, I 'm putting together a recipe to try this with;
12.5 gal preboil
11 gal batch

18# 2 row
2# vienna
1# c 40
1# c 20
1# carapils

2.5 oz Warrior 17.2AA 15 min pellet
1 oz Centennial 9.9 AA 10 min leaf
1 oz Corriander cracked 10 min
1 oz Cascade 5.75AA 1 min leaf
8 sweet oranges added to primary(peeled, chopped, brought up to 160 for 5 min and cooled to pitching temp 63degrees)
1 oz Cascade 5.75AA dry hop

90 min mash @ 152
90 min fly sparge w 180 degree water.

Target OG 1.061
Target FG 1.015
ABV 6.19%
IBU 41

15 min total boil time.
Thoughts?

 

Thanks Revvy,

Yeah the plan is to see if the concept works. If it does I plan on building a larger 1bbl+ system as a pilot for the brewery. With all said and done -hoping to increase the design to a 7bbl brewery with a total reduction in the range of 60% less energy usage and about 40% less water usage, total including cleaning water.

Everyone else... Hop oil is definitely an option - although I wanted to see what the utilization will be with just wort hopping at different times/rates... and the whole idea of no boil would be not having a kettle, less footprint=more room for other toys

With my current setup I can get full conversion of 14 lbs of grain in about 25 minutes doing no sparge. If I can really bring it down to maybe a 45 minute mash with hops added every 15 minutes, a 15 minute mashout/recirc and then chill right into the fermenter. then dryhop the hell out of it.

Lots of ideas, but right now I have modern physics, linear algebra, and integrated circuits tests to study for. Back to the books!

 

Not a nay-sayer... DO this experiment and let us know!

Just came across something to consider or put in your report for interest. From Fix's "principles of brewing science"

"[calcium ions] continue to interact with malt phosphate during wort boiling ... the primary reason that wort pH decreases in the kettle boil."

No idea what that might do to the final beer... leave it at a higher pH? So what?