Experiences with different saison yeast blends

Wanted to throw this update in since I was really blown away by the responses.

Brough my imperial dark saison to a brew club meeting. Basically a standard belgian dark strong ale recipe, but 50/50 belle saison yeast with 3068 Hefeweizen yeast. Finished around 12% abv and fermented in the mid to low 80s. Was a giant hit with my brew club, there are things about it that I wasn't happy with so I brought it just as an after thought to fill out a 6 pack carrier.

The Minnesota Mash Out is coming up so I am entering it as a BDSA then in the Belgian Specialty categories to see what the judges pick up.

 

That seems pretty cool. Ive played around with using saison yeasts and other belgians yeasts for various hybrid styles. Ive found saison yeasts work very well for stronger belgian ales to keep it dry and drinkable even at such a high OG. Never wouldve considered using a hefe yeast though...

 

I cracked a bottle of this last night and this is the best saison Ive made to date. I used about 40% flaked wheat/flaked rye to account for the absurd attenuation and it worked very well. One thing I cant place is this candy-like finish. Its hard to describe, maybe like a lemonhead? Its not sweet, but kinda gives the impression. The finish ends up being much more rounded than a 0.997 FG beer has a right to be. I used exp527 hops so that may be some of whats going on, but Im pretty sure its the yeast combo. I hope the flavor stays more or less constant while it matures

Im doing a WLP I II III saison this weekend. Not sure how useful itll be for yeast blending purposes though since Im going to bomb the crap out of it with pacific gem hops. I walked back from the brewery near me with nearly 2lbs of them from a batch they were brewing last weekend.

 

This thread is what made me want to do the blend in the first place. I had BS on hand, but not any other saison or Belgian yeasts on hand and closest LHBS is about 30 minutes away, looked at my yeast bank, and theres the 3068 and I know you can pull decent esters (not just banana) from a hefe yeast, and a common critique of BS is it can have a rather "boring" ester profile for a saison.

So if I enter this beer and it does well/gets a medal, its your fault m00ps. (I already like the beer and its super tasty and a great "1 and done" beer so if it doesnt do well at competition it really doesn't matter to me)

 

Has anybody tried blending WL545 with a Saison strain? 545 is listed as Belgian Strong and doesn't seem to be that popular of a strain, but with two beers I have used it in, it performs like a Saison strain. It dropped a Belgian Stout from 1.076 down to 1.008, I mashed lower than normal stouts, mashed at 150, I then repitched part of the yeast cake for a Quad, which it took from 1.092 down to 1.004. It took the Quad a lot lower than I wanted/expected and did so in about 10 days.

I don't pick up much "barnyard/funk" in either of these but given the dark grains in the stout and some Caramunich III and 3lbs of sugar in the Quad that doesn't surprise me. It does seem to give some dark fruit flavors which could be interesting to combine with a strain like 3711 that doesn't give off many esters.

 

Isnt WLP545 the Rochefort strain? I could see that working well with a saison strain to get a mix of the dark fruit flavors it has and the spicier saison esters.

 

Moops, you might of done this combo, but I might try taking 3711 and combining it with Wyeast Forbidden Fruit. The esters from Forbidden would probably pair well with 3711's lemony leanings.

 

I've found this useful for yeast source lookup. WLP540 is supposedly Rochefort.

http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm

 

I like Belle Saison with S-33, but Belle and Wallonian Farmhouse is a great blend; 1.065-1.000 with a smooth finish, almost creamy,but also dry.

 

Does anyone have experience fermenting any of these yeasts cold? I have some wyeast French saison I bought before it got cold and need to use. I don't have a warm place to put it though. Just curious if anyone can give me feedback on flavors before in case it's just wasted materials. Thx.

 

any saison strain (aside from the infamous Dupont) is fully capable of fermenting at normal ale temps. They may not be as assertive when fermented cooler and may end a few points higher than they would at high temps but it works fine. You can try insulating your fermentor by zipping it up in a heavy winter coat or something

 

Yea, wrap your fermentor in a couple blankets, making sure to get a blanket on the bottom to insulate from the cold floor, and you'll be able to get the temp up significantly.

 

I refer to this when I'm not sure of a strain, or I need WY instead of WL. Seems nobody has figured out where 545 is from besides the Ardennes region. White Labs puts it as a 2 for Tripels and Saisons, yet the reviews I have found give great reviews for Saison that have used it

I have to figure out where I can ferment before I can start brewing again, since my in-laws are moving. Once i have a place to ferment at I'm going to try the 3711 and 545 and possibly a 566/545 combo.

 

I got some Inland Island yeast from @tgmartin000 . Its the "Farmhouse" one with strawberry and hay descriptions. Pretty stoked to give it a shot this weekend. Figure the esters should work well with the bunch of Belma I have

I did end up doing a I II III saison for the hell of it. So its WLP565, WLP566, WLP585 in equal amount. I still have to take a sample from it

 

Just an FYI, I'm pretty sure the comparison/original info floating around is solely from Kristen England's work at Mr malty. My yeast strain chart uses his data (with permission). The only other info comes if a yeast lab tells you the origin (RVA yeast is good with that). When I contacted Kristen he made it seem as if he had been accumulating additional origins, but didn't reveal much more

 

I love that farmhouse strain, in my opinion it really shines with a hoppy wort, i've done many a ten-gallon batch with one carboy of standard WLP001 or WLP007 yeast, and a second with the Inland Island farmhouse strain. I haven't yet gotten any strawberry notes out of it, but i haven't played with the starting fermentation temps on it yet either. PM me if you have any interesting notes after using it.

 

Thanks for the info. I got a crapload of pacific gem and belma. I figured either would work pretty well in a decent amount. What yeast derived flavors did you pick up? Im planning on fermenting into the 90s

 

I put the temp profile I use on this yeast in this thread: it's the first post on the page. I haven't done a straight-up ipa with the farmhouse in about a year, but there was a lot of different yeast esters going on which toned down the hops significantly. If i recall correctly there were some apple/pear notes and some of the sweet hay mentioned as well. IT was a fantastic Belgian beer if you like big flavors. I want to do 10 gallons of that beer again early this spring, last time I only had 5 gallons and it hardly had time to age before the keg kicked!

 

1.004 hapens. 3711 don't care. Neither does BS. I've mashed at 160 and it's the same, even in a big stout with lots of specialty malts. It seems 1.004 is the magic number.

 

I seem to get 1.003 three times out of four with Belle Saison.
Mix it with WF and you get 1.000

 

yeah that was my experience right to the thousandth. well with WY3711, but im still pretty convinced they were at one point the same yeast

 

@m00ps

Do you harvest yeast and wash it for the blends you end up liking and repitching? Do they change drastically batch to batch? I know a saison yeast would easily out compete most regular ale yeasts so a saison/any-ale-yeast blend the saison would quickly take over by the 2nd/3rd batch, but 2/3 saisons together, do the blends seem to retain their unique character over the course of repitching?

 

I overbuild all my starters and store some of the decanted yeast in a vial or mason jar for next time. I mistakenly mixed my first blend all in one starter so that one is now my "saison blend," but everything else I keep each strain separate. Some of them Ive used nearly 10 times now since buying fresh and, at least from tasting the starter wort, they seem to be consistent with what I remember

 

I'm getting antsy to try a dark belgian stout inspired by Allagash Black in this Craft Beer for the homebrewer book I bought in the fall.

I got an electric blanket I'll probably wrap my fermentor with, and I think I'm going to go for the fruit bomb mix of 3711, and WLP that you love moops. Should be an interesting mix of stout/fruit flavors from the yeast.

I'll post some notes once it's done.

 

That sounds really interesting. I tried a Belgian stout once, but that was a while ago before I went all nutty with yeast experiments

 

If you're looking for a Belgian stout here's a recipe that happened by mistake. Was supposed to be a clone of Stone Epic 06 but I grabbed midnight wheat instead of dark wheat. Everybody's that tried it has liked it, some more than others, but even the "non-Belgian" crowd has liked it.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=542753

 

So I couldn't get the exact yeast combo I wanted from my LHBS. I picked up 3711, and Forbidden Fruit. I like both yeasts, and I'm not planning on doing starters, I'm just going to pop the nutrient pouches, shake, and let them duke it out in the fermentor. I do plan on washing/harvesting after fermentation is complete, hopefully the combo can become a 'house' strain for me.

Bolus, I also ended up getting midnight wheat for this Allagash recipe since they didn't have dark, should be interesting.

I'll be brewing it up Saturday or Sunday, first brew for the New Year.

 

Don't know how I haven't stumbled upon this thread before. Looking forward to reading all 11 pages

 

WLP 565 / WLP 566 / WLP585 - Belgian Saison I, II, III
I ended up doing the 1-2-3 saison just for the heck of it. And the yeast profile is pretty balanced, go figure. Guess its a bit on the fruitier side due to the high fermentation temps. I hopped it with mostly pacific gem and a bit of meridian to play off the yeast esters. Pac gem has a nice tangy blackberry and spice character that should go well with I and III. Meridian has a lemony sweetness that should go well with just about any saison yeast IMO.

INISBC 291 Farmhouse Ale / WLP585
This one Im hoping with all Belma to hopefully work with the strawberry and hay from the 291. Both of these descriptors are given by the manufacturer and I defintiely picked them up from tasting my starter. Im hoping the WLP585 will brighten it up a bit with some tartness. Nearly carbed now

INISBC 291 / Omega Yeast Hot head
This ones only about a week in, but both are very fruit foward strains so I think they should work well together. And not like citrus fruits, but more berryish.

 

You are animal! I don't know how you find the time to brew that much. Keep up the good work!

 

Good news, for those looking for an alternative to the water heater, and tub option I wrapped up my Belgian-inspired stout/Allagash Black inspired wort in an electric blanket, and another blanket on top of that. It's warm, I don't have specific temps, but its warmer then anything I could achieve otherwise at this time of the year.

I threw in 3711, and Forbidden Fruit, if I get the desired attenuation, and fruity esters, I'll prepare a Biere de Garde recipe and pitch onto this cake when it's done.

 

For my saisons before I put them in my heater setup and other Belgians , I have an expensive ass insulated winter jacket I zip around it to keep heat from fermentation in. Works great and looks funny. Usually gets to 80f with 68f ambient from free rising alone

 

Yeah, mine is probably close to that temp if not higher then 80F. Feels warm to the touch which is a good sign. Here's to hopefully good byproducts from the healthy yeast.

 

The saison/wit hybrid I did with WLP585 (Saison III) and WY3463 (Forbidden Fruit), I ended up souring with a blend I have. I did taste it when I racked it onto some blackberries though and it was very very fruity and bracingly tart. I definitely want to revisit this idea with a clean beer

 

Blackberries, to me, will do that to most sours.

 

I've just finished reading Markowski's Farmhouse Ales book and wanted to experiment with yeast blending. The info in this thread is priceless! Keep up the amazing work!

 

Hey moops. What blend would you recommend for the most "rustic" profile? I'm looking for peppery, funky without Brett. Fruit is good too, but I'm mostly looking for a spicy aroma.

 

The spiciest strains to me have been the classic WY3724/WLP565, YB Wallonian Farmhouse, Danstar Belle Saison, and RVA-263 Ghost Saison (prob cant get this unless you are near Virginia). This new INISBC 291 - Farmhouse Ale yeast definitely has some rustic hay-like flavors, but its mostly fruit aside from that IME.

You'll want to ferment a bit cooler (probably still need to bump up into the 80s for just 3724) for a spicier yeast character. Usually, higher temps gets me a more assertive yeast character, but it tends to be fruitier too. Using some rye or spelt would be a good idea as well I think

 

updates:
INISBC 291 Farmhouse Ale / WLP585
hopped w/ Belma, accidently dry hopped w/Pac Gem

This is fully carbed and conditioned enough to drink now. It should hit its stride in another 2 weeks or so, but its really really nice right now. Ive just been trying the last 2-3 that I bottled which always have excess yeast sediment. Despite the mix-up with the dry hops, I hit my target dead on with this one. Bright tangy strawberry character, but with that classic rustic saison backbone and a super crisp finish. I gave a glass to SWMBO and she picked out strawberries before taking a sip. I may have a new front runner for favorite combo

 

3711 has an odd habit of dropping gravity to around .012-.010, making me think its done. Then I rack to secondary...and BAM 3711 decides it's still hungry. I mixed in forbidden fruit yeast, but still...twice this has happened. It amuses me...I don't notice off flavors, and I get more alcohol so no complaints there.

I have my allagash black clone sitting in secondary and its bubbling more now then a week ago. Wonder if I should wrap my blanket around it again.