Clean VS Sanitized

I've ben talking with my wife about clean vs sanitized. We both don't like to use sanitizers for anything. Just another chemical additive that isn't good for you. She recommended that I read Wild Fermentation By Sanor Katz. He is in the clean camp. She does quite a lot of fermenting, cheese, kambutcha, vegetables etc and doesn't use sanitizers. This is my first foray into beer making and I don't want to use sanitizer. Any pointers I should know about? All equipment will be vigorously washed then covered with a clean towel and allowed air dry. My first recipe is Columbus IPA using the recommended yeast.
Thanks!

 

Cheese kambutcha and sourkraut all ferment using bacteria and yeast combined. If you don't mind sour beers go for it.

Phosphoric acid is the active ingredient in star san. It works by dropping the pH of water below 3.0 which is fatal to most bugs. Phosphoric acid is a common food additive especially in dairy products and cheeses to maintain shelf life. It is not harmful unless you drink the stuff directly or in large quantities over time. Using it in brewing you're talking about 1 oz, diluted into 5 gallons, then sprayed onto a surface and allowed to drip for a minute. In your finished beer, the level of phosphoric acid is less than a few parts per million.

All food is made of chemicals, the process of fermentation is a chemical process. The word "chemical" doesn't make something automatically bad for you.

You need to sanitize to make consistently good beer. You may get lucky from batch to batch, but chances are you'll have an infection eventually.

 

I don't bother sanitizing equipment for Kombucha brewing.

I ABSOLUTELY sanitize all my post-boil equipment for beer brewing. It's very important, imho.

Look into StarSan. It's a safe, effective pH based sanitizer that is designed specifically for food and beverage applications.

 

What do you intend to vigorously wash with? Soap, detergents? Aren't these also chemical additives? It's my understanding most typical soap type residue will have a unfavorable result when used in contact with brewing equipment.

 

Alcohol is a chemical. Consumption of it has been irrefutably linked to a variety of ailments running the gamut from the mild to life ending.

Water is a chemical. Don't inhale it in it's liquid form. Vapor is OK though.

Similarly phosphoric acid is a chemical sanitizer. Don't consume it neat. Dilute it appropraitely to effective and safe levels and you're good.

The same is true of iodophor and sodium hypochlorite should you decide to go that route.

Vigorous scrubbing is not recommended for plastics involved in brewing.

Best of luck.

 

Stop spreading your Lyes!

 

Good luck with your infected beers!

 

Its simple really, your making beer not those other items. If you want your beer to not be infected use sanitizer, if you like infections then don't use sanitizer.

Not trying to be rude, just straight forward and honest b/c there isn't really too much grey area here.

 

Wow! Ok... I guess in the beginning of beer making they used Starsan to sanitize the barrel? I guess our industrial food production industry has infected home brew with fear tactics as spread by all you good folks.
So, I have ask, how many of you have brewed a batch without sanitizing?

 

In the beginning of beer-making, most all beers were soured/infected.

 

Wow! Ok... I'm sure you're the only person who's ever questioned this practice of sanitation. What an innovator you must be. Thanks for opening our eyes!

Yes, plenty of us have brewed without sanitizing. It's doable, but hardly advisable. The risk of infecting a batch is substantial, and often results in dumping all your time and effort down the drain, and wasted ingredients. Why take the chance?

What's wrong with safe food grade sanitizers? Can you answer that question without using the word "chemical" as if it were synonymous with "poison"?

 

Good question. While sanitization has a legal definition regarding food production and water, it's working definition is: to reduce the number of microorganisms to a level that will not effect the desired outcome. Even a sanitized surface will still have a level of microbes present. Yeast fermentation of wort poses different issues compared to fermenting other foods. Wort is growth media that is favorable to numerous microbes including bacteria. Bacteria like Lactobacilli are ubiquitous in nature and have the capability of reproducing much faster than most yeasts. When fermenting most other food products (and sour beer) it is often Lactobacillus that is responsible for the heavy work. You may have noticed your wife's cheese is finished fermenting in ~24hrs. It may be possible to ferment beer without sanitizing your equipment but you would need to pitch a very large, healthy pitch of yeast in warmer than normal temperatures, so the yeast could get ahead of the bacteria. The problem is you can't make many (if any) good beers that way. If you are going with wild fermentation (very challenging) clean may be good enough. It's just not going to work well for you in "clean" beers (those fermented with yeast only).

Heat is very effective method of sanitization (better than chemical). For items that can't be heated, ethanol is a great sanitizer but expensive. While ethanol is a chemical (i guess), it's going to be in your beer anyway.

 

My guess would be extremely few. Most of us don't want to spend anwhere between $20-$60 on ingredients for a batch of beer as well as time and energy just so we can roll the dice on practices that are known to greatly increase the chances that said batch will become infected and flushed down the toilet.

You're free to undertake this how you like - by all means brew a few batches as a test case and post whatever the results are here. It'd be interesting to see.

 

Oh god noooooo........

...I breathed in the toxic frozen water vapor.

 

Sorry double post off the phone

 

I guess the OP doesn't need to be harangued. The answer to the question is the vast majority of homebrewers sanitize so can't answer your question. You try it and tell us how it goes. You could use boiling water as a start.

 

That is a great idea - pouring the boiling wort - 212F into a bucket - will kill any bugs in that bucket !

Go with the "no Chill" method.

pitch yeast following day


S

 

I have brewed without sanitizing (not intentionally). I actually thought I was sanitizing with Iodophor, and didn't realize that Iodophor loses its effectiveness after several hours. The batch I was using was several weeks old, so basically tinted water.

The beer ended up being infected. Luckily most of it was drank within 2-3 weeks of bottling and it wasn't noticeable. However, there were a few bottles put up on the shelf for a few months, and they all turned into gushers.

 

There are other sanitizers that could be viewed as more environmentally harmonious such as iodophor or vinegar/peroxide mix (peroxyacetic acid) but it's all in the eye of the beholder which would be more or less dangerous to human health. Plain old dilute bleach soln with a bit of vinegar in my mind isn't at all unhealthy to use. These basic chemicals have around kitchens for quite some time now and don't seem to be harmful to humans when used properly. Read the MSDS for dishwashing liquid or hand soap if you want a chemical list.

 

I ferment in an old boot that I found on the side of the road and all my beers come out great! It's leather, so it's natural. No chemicals.

 

I came here looking for honest answers to an honest question. I am new to home brewing and have an interest in not having to buy one more unnecessary product because "they" say I should. If some of you guys can't deal with that then please don't suggest that I am off my rocker, believe in chem trials and are trolling. Way to share info! Of all the posts only about 3 actually address what I was asking about. To those people I say thank you! The rest of you can jump on the chem trail...

 

I think the collective "we" are saying that buying a sanitizer is not "unnecessary". "We" think it is very necessary. "We" are sharing our collective experience & wisdom - i.e., "information". You asked a question and "we" answered it - honestly. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't right.

If you can't deal with that, maybe you shouldn't have started the thread.

*shrug*

 

Really? Alcohol, in sufficient concentration, is a sanitizer. So is heat. Why are you down on "sanitizers" as a category? Surely you must realize this is something of an odd question, to say the least.

There's no rule that says you have to sanitize anything. But even hundreds of years ago, brewers did, using the tools available to them, because they found it made for better beer. So if you're really down on Star-San for some reason, use heat, use vodka, use iodine, or use something else where you can. Then get accustomed to drinking beer with a higher microbial diversity (read: wild yeast, lactobacillus, and other critters). Learn to drink beer quickly, risk bottle bombs, or keg. The beauty of homebrewing is it's all up to you.

 

Really? It sounds more like you came here to argue.

Google search "homebrew infection". It's a common problem, particularly amongst newbies who think they can get by with lackadaisical sanitation practices.

And you still haven't answered my question.

 

ok, ok. This is a friendly, but opinionated forum. Here's the deal. You can make beer without sanitizer, but most of us believe that it won't be any good. Therefore, many of us think it is not only safe, but necessary. The majority of us love experimentation, so feel free to prove us wrong. If you want to try this for yourself, I think you should:
-anything that can be sanitized with heat or alcohol, do so
-clean equipment well and rinse with pre-boiled water
-make a small batch you can drink through quickly
-use a lot of hops
-monitor bottles frequently to ensure you aren't making bottle bombs

I still think you'll make infected beer and maybe that's an acceptable outcome to you. But perhaps you'll also make a batch that you enjoy.

 

I will say this, the sanitizers we use in brewing are used throughout the food industry. I guarantee you that most of the food you eat has seen sanitized surfaces/equipment. The most benign sanitizer would be 70% ethanol. It's going to cost you but at least you understand the single ingredient involved.

It's all about controlling the process and good cleaning/sanitizing methods are part of that control.

I would not consider brewing without using both a caustic cleaner (4% NaOH), and a sanitizer (I use StarSan).

 

I did. My first batch, I cleaned brand new equipment with a cleaner (I thought was sanitizer) and it was okay. And my second batch, I cleaned with my cleaner (I thought was sanitizer) and ended up with 5 gallons of infected beer that gushed itself to death. That was a $40 batch that was wasted because I didn't know enough to buy a $15 sanitizer that ended up lasting me 2 years.

edit: I'm also an advocate of natural health. Get StarSan. Use it as directed. Nothing else to worry about.

 

Don't forget, kids: One brewer's infection is another's innoculation.


Don't judge.

 

I am new to the brewing process myself and had the same question ("What did the do 100 years ago before starsan?") That being said, I have my bottle of Starsan and don't brew without it....

 

Drank a lot of sour beers.

Yes, "people" have bene making beer for centuries, if not millenia. Can you throw a bunch of fermentable stuff into a clay pot or wooden barrel and make "beer"? Of course you can, and that's how it was done for a long long time. And, really no need to speculate, just take a bunch of crushed grain or fruit, put it in a bucket outside and wait for something to happen. Then try drinking it. It will ferment, although it certainly won't be a BJCP-approved, style-appropriate beer as we think of it today. If that's what you're after, then correct there's certainly no need for refined chemical sanitizers and cleaners and the like. However, the general consensus is that if one wants consistently to make a clean, controlled, tasty beverage resembling what modern-day civilization thinks of as "good beer", then yes, a certain level of sanitization will be required. The form and extent that takes is completely up to the brewer.

 

Just like brewing, farming practices have evolved to encompass the modern day concepts of microbial life.

Animal husbandry and crop management while similar to millennia old practices have changed considerably. I'm sure the same is true of smithing/metalurgy.

As a farmer and a blacksmith I'm guessing that you make use of modern methods and don't restrict yourself to Egyptian or Sumerian technology.

Not really sure why you would be so skeptical of established brewing norms which have as their bedrock, solid irrefutable science. This relates not just to keeping nasties out but also to cultivating the desired microscopic life-forms instrumental in the creation of beer in all its forms.

I see no down-side to sanitary practices. It's cheap and both labor and time non-intensive. The same cannot be said of the corollary. Packaging in particular must be sanitary if one hopes to have any sort of product stability in the keg or bottle.

You are the brewer and decide what is done and not done in your home brewery.

Try not to get so bent out of shape when folks disagree with you on the internet, or during life in general. Best of luck going forward. I wish you every success.

 

I don't mean to pile on this guy, but seriously...anyone who is thinking about getting into this hobby should also consider practicing good sanitation. It's just common sense. Why would you spend hours on a brew day making your favorite beer, only to hope it "becomes your favorite" because you're afraid to use a chemical to give beer yeast an advantage?


As you've said, you're new to the hobby, so if some of those answers bother you, what are you going to do when you have a few soured batches in a row because you choose to no use a "chemical" sanitizer, especially after a few long brew days? The answer may be harsh, but I think that's just experience talking. This community has a lot, and I mean a LOT, to offer. "They say you should" because they have learned from years of experience. Give them a chance and just keep an open mind. That's all I'm saying.

 

did someone mention a decoction or am I the only one get major deja vu here?

 

In the old days they "cleansed" the beer. I don't know if that meant they put sulfite or lime or whatever, but here is some text from the "A Treatise on the Brewing of Beer".

There is no coming at any exact time, with respect to
hours, when your beer will be ready to cleanse, therefore this must be
done by attention, in frequently examining when your beer is at its
full head of working, or what is commonly said, rather inclined to go
back; when it is in that state it should be cleansed immediately.

 

Or the thread in electric brewing today where a guy equated using Fotek SSRs to "thinking outside the box" to posting a list of a bunch of esteemed scientists including Albert Einstein.


That thread + this one + "what is good beer"....good day on HBT.

 

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=15996

here is another thread exploring the topic of historical sanitation practices.

I also went to an archaeology school on the island of Cyprus that was focused on their beer making practices. In particular we excavated a barley kiln that was used during the bronze age for malting barley. We also performed a reconstruction of the brewing practices of the age.

We crushed our grain using a stone grinder, then put them into water that had been heated in a copper tub near an open fire. We mashed and left the grain suspended in the liquid and then allowed it to open air ferment over the course of a week. At the end of the fermentation I volunteered to be the first to try this hot mess and it was essentially a buteric acid bomb. It tasted like sour vomit and was absolutely awful.

This reproduction was based on the available archaeological evidence that has been found on the island of beer in various stages of development. So I think the bronze age people of Cyprus just had an acquired taste for that stuff.

There is also a tribe in Africa that makes a honey beer by combining honey, honeycomb, ash from a fire, and chewed up grains that are then spit back into the beer.

There are plenty of methods of making beer that can be considered "historical" "natural" "chemical free" etc. In my opinion none of them are good according to our (mostly) western pallets. So as other's have said, some sort of sanitation practices are helpful if you want to make a consistently good beer and not risk throwing out $40 worth of ingredients.

I hope whatever you decide works well for you!

Cheers.

 

Sorry for my snarky comment, I just couldn't resist, as this topic comes up frequently around here. I will do my best to attempt to answer your question honestly. As you know, beer has been made for thousands of years. During most of that time sanitation was not a consideration, because before 1856, when Pasteur came up with germ theory, the concept of sanitation didn't exist. Brewers learned through trial and error what worked and what didn't and that cleaner equipment yielded better beer, even if they didn't understand why.

With the industrial revolution, and a wider understanding of chemistry and microbiology, it became clear that good cleaning and sanitation practices were an absolute necessity in order to obtain the best product possible. What we brewers have access to know is the culmination of many, many years of experimentation and scientific discovery. There are many methods of sanitizing, most of which are impractical for the homebrewer (i.e. steam or dry heat, UV light, etc). Other chemical sanitizers, such as bleach for example, are good at sanitizing, but they must be rinsed, and with bleach, it's reactive with stainless steel. Iodine based sanitizers were used for many years, and still are. They work well, but they have their own issues, like staining everything they come in contact with.

The earliest Brewers had no idea how the sugar laden mashes they made ended up as beer. They were openly fermented and relied on wild yeast to accomplish the fermentation. Some batches would be good, and some would be sour and nasty. I suspect that home brewing today without good cleaning and sanitizing procedures would yield similar results. Some good batches and some nasty ones. Totally hit or miss.

I've been brewing beer since 2005. Aside from my very first batch (Alton Brown's Amber Wave), in which I used some kind of detergent to clean and bleach to sanitize, I've been using PBW and Star-San. I'm happy to report that in the hundreds of batches I've made I've not had a single infected batch. I didn't come up with my procedures on my own. They came from reading about the experiences of other brewers, and listening to the advice of more experienced brewers than I. As the years have gone by, more and more homebrewers were singing the praises of Star-San, so it really is a great product and it makes the very important act of sanitizing your equipment quick and easy with absolutely zero down side. So remember, don't fear the foam, lol! I hope this information is helpful.

I've never been an "it's good enough" kind of a guy. There are many ways to make beer, even good beer, but there are only a few ways to make really, really good beer, and even fewer to make great beer. It's up to you to decide what's best for you, and what results you're willing to accept. Happy brewing my friend.

 

We live in a society were hand sanitizer is at the grocery store entrance. All the micro organisms have become the enemy! Some of the replies to this thread have shown me how in-tallerant some people can be when asked a question that challenges current beliefs. Non the less, I have learned that un-sanitized equipment can allow the beer to sour and remove the predictability of the outcome. Also, that it is outside the convention of modern home brewing. I also know there are some regional beers that are regional because of the local organisms in the air. This leads me to the decision to brew my 1st batch using sanitizer and then brew up another batch with the same recipe and do it without sanitizer.