Chinook and Citra Pale Ale Recipe - First Time Recipe, Suggestions Needed!

Just wanted some thoughts on this recipe of mine. I've been brewing with my buddy since last February, and we've finally started to turn out some good all-grain beers using recipes we found on-line (thanks HBT!). Now we're getting ready to brew our first unique recipe, and I wanted some feedback . . . so fire away, you experienced brewers to suggest ways to tweak/improve in this brew:

Two-Bit Pale Ale

SIZE: 12 Gallon Batch

EXPECTATIONS
1.046 OG
1.012 FG
4.98% ABV
41 IBUs
12.9% SRM
70% Efficiency

RECIPE
20.0 lbs. 2-Row Pale
2.0 lbs. Caramel 60L
1.5 lbs. Munich 60L

Mash with 29.5 qts. water at 45 min at 158 degrees F.
After runnings, run 11.75 qts. water to rinse grains at 168 degrees F.

Boil time: 60 minutes
1.5 oz 13.0% AAU Chinook for 60 minutes
1.0 oz Irish Moss for 15 minutes
2.0 oz 5.5% AAU Cascade for 10 minutes
2.0 oz 13.0% AAU Citra for 0 minutes (flame out)

Ferment with California Ale Yeast for 3 weeks.

Carbonate at 2.5 volumes.

I had toyed with upping the IBUs slightly by adding 0.5 oz 13.0% AAU Chinook at the 5 or 1 minute mark, but I'm not sure that would be a good idea.

Any thoughts? I'm buying the ingredients later this week.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

Chris

 

I'd stagger the Citras and Cascades from 15 minutes down in order to get good flavor out of them instead of mainly just aroma. This will also up your IBUs which you want anyway.

 

So you think maybe this schedule?

1.0 Cascade 15 min
1.0 Citra 15 min
1.0 Cascade 5 min
1.0 Citra 5 min
0.5 Cascade 1 min
0.5 Citra 1 min

 

Add the first addition Chinook back and you're in business. I'd also dry hop with an ounce each of Citra and Cascade. I make a hoppy house pale with a very similar hop schedule...

Cheers!

 

All right, adjusted as follows, with some FWH, too . . . rather than dry hops, which adds an earthy taste I really don't prefer - I'll try to get a cleaner hop nose and taste without the earthiness. I've increased the bitterness quite a bit, but for a first recipe, I can always dial it back on the next brew if it's too much.

Two-Bit Pale Ale

12 Gallon Batch

20.00 lbs. 2-Row Pale
2.00 lbs. Caramel 60L
1.5 lbs. Munich 60L

Mash at 158 degrees F for 60 min.

First Wort Hops Additions at First Runnings
0.25 13.20% AAU Citra
0.25 13.00% AAU Chinook

Boil Time: 60 minutes
1.50 oz. 13.00% AAU Chinook, 15 minutes
1.00 oz. Irish Moss, 15 Minutes
1.00 oz. Citra, 15 minutes
1.00 oz. Cascade, 15 minutes
1.00 oz. Citra, 5 minutes
1.00 oz. Cascade, 5 minutes
0.50 oz. Citra, 1 minute
0.50 oz. Cascade, 1 minute
0.50 oz. Chinook, 1 minute

Ferment with California Ale Yeast for 3 weeks.

Carb at 2.5 volumes CO2.

Expectations of Beer
OG: 1.054
FG: 1.012
ABV: 5.50%
IBUs: 58.65
SRM: 12.9

 

Mmmm...that should have really good hop flavor now! I really like Citras and Cascades, this will be like a session IPA!

 

There was zero issue with your first recipe. Hopping schedule looked fine, and was much simpler, i'd stick with that. I do like the idea of adding dry hops though.

You're going to be on the darker side for an american pale though, you might consider 8oz less C60 (1.5lbs) to keep it in the right color range.

 

I have never seen 60L Munich, are you sure you not going to use Cara Munich which is 60L.

If that is the case I would not use that much crystal malt as your resulting beer could be too cloying. I would sub it for regular Munich(~10L) or dark Munich (~20L) for more malt character and some color.

I think 15% crystal malts is a little much for a pale ale. Using Munich malt would also bring your color down to a more reasonable SRM for a pale ale.

using 10L munich = 9.4 SRM
using 20L munich = 9.6 SRM

 

Very close to mine that I've been trying to nail down for a while but I only use 9% of caramunich which brings out a little red and mash at 154°. Your hop schuled looks good but I would take that last one and dryhop with it mine is 60,20,5 and dry!

 

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! Please feel free to continue to comment and provide suggestions. I really like the above advice - it makes sense to me, so I'm going to alter the recipe for that.

According to iBrewMaster, this will give me an SRM of 11, which is a color I really like. The OG and FG stay the same, but that means I should probably dial back the IBUs. So I'll move the two 15 minute additions to be added at 10 minutes and cut the Chinook 60 minute down to 1 oz.

At the same time, I like the various additions, and I think it will give a much more layered complexity to the hop profile, so I'll try that this time around bearing in mind the comments to just use the original recipe.

Now the grain and hop profile look like this:

20.0 lbs. 2-Row Pale
2.0 lbs. 2-Row Caramel 60L
1.5 lbs. Munich 20L

Mash at 158 for 60 minutes

0.25 Chinook FWH
0.25 Citra FWH

1.00 Chinook 60 minutes
1.00 Cascade 10 minutes
1.00 Citra 10 minutes
1.00 Cascade 5 minutes
1.00 Citra 5 minutes
0.50 Cascade 1 minute
0.50 Citra 1 minute

EXPECTATIONS
OG 1.054
FG 1.012
ABV 5.50%
IBU 45.58
SRM 11.0

 

158 seems a little high to me for pale ale

If it were me I would shoot for 152 with the goal being a drier finish which I like in my pales. 158 is more in line with what a mash a stout at. Just my opinion

 

I totally missed that - good catch. Yes, 158 is way high for a pale...

Cheers!

 

Thanks. 152 degrees Fahrenheit. If we want a bit more body, I'll inch it up in later brews.

 

That's where I found that I like 154° for my all citra apa

 

After consulting with my brewing partner, we're going to go with 154 degrees as a target mash temp. Not only because of edmanster's comment, but the water in our area gives our beer a rather dry quality already. In addition, we are already using California Ale yeast, which should help mitigate any loss of dryness by upping the temp. Finally, both he and I enjoy slightly maltier / thicker-bodied beers, so this will help our pale ale have our own spot of panache and personal signature.

Keep any other comments coming! I feel like the recipe has been greatly improved by the feedback, here. Thanks fellas!

 

Hi, fellas. This is the final recipe we'll be using. I'll come back and post how it tasted and looked once it's done. For anyone curious what the final recipe ended up being, here it is:

TWO-BIT PALE ALE (12 Gallon Batch)

EXPECTATIONS

OG: 1.054
FG: 1.012
ABV: 5.50%
IBU: 45.58
SRM: 11.0

GRAIN PROFILE & MASH

20.00 lbs. 2-Row Pale
2.0 lbs. Caramel 60L
1.5 lbs. Munich 20L
Mash at 154 degrees for 60 minutes

HOP SCHEDULE

60 Minute Boil
0.25 oz. - 13.20% AAU Citra, FWH
0.25 oz. - 13.00% AAU Chinook, FWH
1.00 oz. - 13.00% AAU Chinook, 60 Minutes
1.00 oz. - 5.50% AAU Cascade, 10 Minutes
1.00 oz. - 13.20% AAU Citra, 10 Minutes
1.00 oz. - 5.50% AAU Cascade, 5 Minutes
1.00 oz. - 13.20% AAU Citra, 5 Minutes
0.50 oz. - 5.5% AAU Cascade, 1 Minute
0.50 oz. - 13.20% AAU Citra, 1 Minute
0.50 oz. - 13.00% AAU Chinook, 1 Minute

FERMENTATION

California Ale Yeast
3 Weeks

CARBONATION

2.5 volumes CO2

 

Brewed this on Sunday. Missed the mash temp by only 1 deg. Hit our OG on the nose. I don't think the FWH adds as much ibus as iBrewMaster calculates, but too late now. I'll post a critique and review and some pics when its done. Thanks again for all helpful advice!

 

I think it's going to be a delicious brew with any of those variations. Good thing is, you get to try them all. That Citra is dang tasty - a little bit of the citrusy tang, then a left turn to the more subtle tropical fruit flavors. Nothing against Chinook, but piling too much of C-hop flavor into the late boil might obscure the citra.

 

Thanks BrewMU. It's nearly done with fermentation now, and I haven't got to taste it yet (it's at my brewing partner's house). But it should be going to the keg in a few more days. I'll certainly keep your suggestion in mind if we decide to brew it again.

Thanks again.

 

Well, just an update on the brew - went into secondary a couple days ago with some gelatin. Today, was tossed into the cooler for a 35 degree cold crash to hopefully clear it up prior to carbonation.

 

Kegged 5 gallons and bottled 2 1/2 cases on Monday night. Will hopefully post some pictures once it's done. It has a really great aroma and a beautiful orange color. The beer is clear as a bell.

It looks like Brew MU might have been right - I think the Chinook clashes a bit with the Citra and before the next time we brew this, I'm going to tweak it by removing the Chinook from the FWH, doubling the Citra in the FWH, and pulling the Chinook from the late boil all together. I'll lose some IBUs, but hopefully lessen the Chinook bite and bring out more of the Citra flavors.

In any case, THIS batch is going to be drinkable at the very least, and after carbonation, some of the edge might be taken off. Time will tell.

As my brew buddy said, "We can't really expect to hit a homerun on the first swing."

I happen to think that we might have got a single.

 

Took the beer to our monthly homebrew club for tasting on 03/01/2012. The general impression from the 20 or members that tried it was that the beer was a decent example of a Pale Ale. There were no rave reviews, but the comments were generally good as to clarity, mouthfeel, and aroma, but the taste received a mediocre response - mostly commented on the heavy citrus and grapefruit notes in the beer as well as the bitter back-end. Some members really liked it, others were less enthusiastic. I'll post some pictures soon.

 

Thanks for the update I really appreciate it when folks follow through with their posts

 

Here's a pic of the finished beer. Not sure if it's done carbonating, there's a bit of a head retention issue, but you can see the clarity and color really well.

 

We entered this beer in a local homebrew competition to get some brutally honestfeedback. Competition is 3/24/12. Ill post some of the comments when we receive them.

 

We entered the beer in a local homebrew competition for some feedback and are awaiting the results. We do lnow that out if 26 beers on our category, it was not in the top three. Hopefully well get the judge results in the next few days and get some honedt criticism on it.

 

We have received the results from the B.O.S.S. Brewing Competition. I filled out an AHA Beer Score Sheet prior to receiving the results from the competition. I rated the beer as follows:

Aroma: 8/12
Appearance: 2/3
Flavor: 14/20
Mouthfeel: 3/5
Overall Impression: 5/10
TOTAL: 32/50

This rated as "Very Good" (roughly the same as "Average").

The final score in the competition was 34/50 - "Very Good"

The two judges who rated this beer had the following comments:

AROMA (9/12; 9/12)
"slight grassy piney hops, very nice!"
"slight fruity, esters, tropical"
"a hint of caramel and bread"
"piney, grassy hop aromas"

APPEARANCE (2/3; 3/3)
"medium gold, clear, off-white head, moderately lasts"
"very clear beer, light amber color with a head that does not hold for long"

FLAVOR (12/20; 12/20)
"very, very dry"
"astringency stale hop flavor that could be due to old hops"
"picking up musty taste, slightly oxidized, maybe"
"woody hops, some citrus, piney, crisp with moderate malt presence."
"slight sulfur presence"
"balance between hops and malt."

MOUTHFEEL (3/5; 4/5)
"medium body, smooth, no noticeable astringency"
"dry beer with little carbonation leaves a heavy dryness"
"after drinking, I pick up an alcoholic flavor in the nose"

OVERALL IMPRESSION (7/10; 7/10)
"It might just be old hops that you have used"
"Try to improve your fermentation temperatures and watch the amount of carbonation."
"A very good beer overall. Malt is present, perhaps could use a bit more malt for the balance."
"As the beer warms, it becomes a bit astringent and coppery."

MY COMMENTS
We used pellet hops for my batch, and it was fresh at the time. We knew that our carbonation would be an issue - our calculations for carbonation probably need to be tweaked - we were shooting for a 2.5 carbonation level, but perhaps we should be going for a somewhat higher number.

This beer was bottled and carbed using priming sugar (corn sugar), but we also kegged ten gallons of it and forced carbed it. The forced carbed beer does taste quite a bit better, and significantly different enough to be able to tell the two apart.

One of the judges mentioned oxidation as an issue - it's always possible, but I really think that our hops profile needs a tune up. For American Pale Ale's, the hops profile (aroma and flavor) is what has to be done right for the beer to be heading in the right direction.

From my own tasting of the beer, the aroma is really awesome, but the mouthfeel and taste of the beer are incongruent with that aroma. The beer smells like it will taste one way, and when you taste it, it does not meet that expectation. At least for me. We will be tweaking this recipe and brewing it again on 04/21. We are only changing the hop profile for this batch. We are still using all the same hops, but significantly cutting back our use of the Cascade, lowering the IBUs. If the hop profile comes out tasting good, subsequent brews will (hopefully) focus on the grain bill - seeking a slightly more full-bodied ale with a less-watery mouthfeel and better head retention (which is all about the mash, I guess).

Cheers to any and all who have been following. I'll post our final recipe for the second batch around brew day and go through the process again.

 

I would move an ounce of the cascade to FWH, first wort hops. I've used cascade for bittering before and they work well.

I would also consider using a half ounce of Midnight Wheat instead of the Crystal 60 if you're using the C60 for color.