Building Automation

Does anybody on here do any automation for a living? I do it in the Commercial HVAC field and I love reading these threads. I'm just curious if anyone is using any commercial/Industrial applications on their homebrew setup.

 

I spent several years designing prison security systems that use many of the same parts used for building automation purposes. My fermentation chamber controller is a mishmash of Allen Bradley relays & terminal blocks and a industrial 24vdc power supply.

 

Awesome. I do some work in a hospital that has an old Allen Bradley system..too old for me to comprehend.

 

Slowly putting together parts for my rig, used to do HVAC (still do on the side) but my day job is commercial kitchen equipment (gas/elec/steam). Hoping to scavenge a steam generator for an old steam kettle to make a big 50gal BIAB rig.

 

I do industrial instrumentation for process control as the primary work, HVAC and life safety systems are secondary work
Having built an automated brew system with 56 points using Opto22 hardware, and have written the application in .Net to make it work, it was more time consuming and engineering effort than any other system out there. It was way more time consuming to write the necessary application than it is was to build the hardware, definitely not worth it if just making beer was the goal.
None of the current automation systems are anywhere close to the capabilities of the Opto22 Hardware, and the control applications are not that sophisticated, yet are sufficient for basic system control if beer making is the goal.

 

Been For Many Years, 20+, Mostly Allen Bradley, Programable Logic Controllers Using RSLink & RSLogix 5/500/5000 & CTC/Parker PS10's HMI's, Including Setting Up RS232C & DH485 Networks/Nodes, Pretty Good w/Instrumentation & Calibration Mostly With
Rosemount and HART Communicators 275-375 & Loveland 2020 Calibrator. Currently Working On Fully Automated Home Fermenter Project, Laying Out The Control Panel Backplane Right Now, Using a AB Micrologix-1200 Dual Comm Port w/a AB 1762-IF4 4-Channel Analog Input Card, 24Vdc OptoCouplers, SSR's, AC Line Filters, AB 1761-NET-AIC+ SerB Network Isolater.
Years Ago, Installed a AB-PLC w/HMI For Home Control
Using a AB SLC5/03 Processor, Have My Own Allen Bradley Registered
RSLogix-500 & Home Instrumentation/Calibration Setup.
Also Section 608 Certification HVAC Universal Technician Since 1994 & Section 609. Heck, If I Told You The Rest, You Would Guess My Age.

You Mentioned Hospital Older Allen Bradley, Might Be Able To Help,
Some Had The Option To Access Program w/a Hand Held Communicator,
Using a RJ49 Port/Looks Like Ethernet/Not/Dont Try! Most Likely, If The Case, Can Access w/RS485 to 9Pin DB Allen Bradley 1741-PIC
Series-A Interface, Comm Port w/Laptop & Software, Alot Faster/Easier
To Understand & Program.
Ebays a Good Place For All Allen Bradley, ie; AB SLC5/03 aprox
25 Yrs Old, Allen Bradley Still Sells Them Today, Industrial and
Highly Dependable, Even If Used From Ebay, and Very Powerful
and Supports Most Anything You Would Used Still On a Limited
Job Application, But For Hobby/Home Use, More Than What You
Will Ever Need or Use, ie: SLC5/03 Runs My House, 4 Card Slot
For Expansion Cards, AC/DC Inputs/Outputs/Analog, Biggest Is a 13
Card Rack/Slot, My House PC Is Node-0, PLC/SLC5-03 is Node-1, The
SLC5/03 Supports Up To 31 Nodes (ie; 29 Houses),

 

I design and program automation systems for vacuum heat treat furnaces for a living. Lots of parallels to home brewing, believe it or not. I fully intend to design a partially automated system one day for brewing. The cash flow just isn't there to support it yet.

 

Yep industrial electrician for 15 years. Started out using GE PLC's, 9 years ago moved to using Allen Bradley PLC 5, 500 and 5000 for all my motion and motor control. I have looked into an all automated brewery for the house but opted for relay logic for all my fluid level and temp control on my system and use ball valves for the flow control. The only PID on the system is in the HLT. The PLC is just to expensive for what were going to do IMHO. BrewTroller is a good option for automation in a home brewery and small production breweries. Its what I am looking at installing in my 2.5 BBL system at the brew store. Where I was going with that is if you want to read about some killer automation systems search BrewTroller. There is some really killer systems out there using that platform.
Cheers
Jay

 

Agreed, Jaybird. I'm working on the exact same thing at this moment.

I've been working as an Electro-Mechanical and Automation Build Tech for the past 8 years for a technology manufacturing company. I have worked with/on everything from simple button mashing relay logic circuits to PLCs to vision assisted 6 axis robots. I get so many cool ideas for brewery additions at that place, but at the end of the day I really don't NEED a robot to stir my mash. I guess I can handle it myself, for now...

 

Thanks for sharing everyone. It's good to know there are others out there. It seems like the majority of you have backgrounds in PLC. I'm straight Honeywell and Johnson DDC. I was planning on using a programmable Honeywell Spyder to control my fermentation chamber but ended up going basic as possible with the JCI A419.

 

I'm a process control specialist (instrumentation Technician) at a very large Corn Starch Processing Facility. We have processes from robotics, Regenerative Thermal Oxidizers, complex chemical delivery, Starch Dryers, Scrubbers, to water treatment, utilities (50lb - 700lb Steam, power generation, 4160V Centac air compressors), etc.

SLC 5/05, PLC2, PLC 5, Control Logix 5000, Provox, Control Net, Ethernet Remote I/O rack, Pi Data historian.

Field instruments (pH, air/water/chemical flow, pressure, temp, level, from Fisher, Foxboro, Rosemount, Moore, Endress & Hauser, Micro-Motion, Mettler Toldeo, etc.

Honeywell Burner Controllers, Motoman Robots, Stone bag packaging and palletizing systems, Allen Bradley PowerFlex Drives, PF4, PF70, 700, 7000, 753, 755. 1336, 1305s, Motors from 1/25HP to 750HP, Fisher and Masoneilin Control Valves, Xomox, Triad, and Hytork Discrete Valves.

The plant was built in 1967 and equipment ranges from ancient to tomorrow's technology.

As a field tech, I take calls for any sort of malfunction and troubleshoot, repair or replace any necessary items and also design and install new systems.

Currently just beginning 4 Control upgrades for 4 different processes from PLC 2 and Provox to CL5000 at $200,000 each. We also have 4 new builds beginning this fall, $220 million.

 

Funny..Sounds like you and I have the same job and use the exact same equipment. I was reading your post and kept thinking to myself...That sounds like my job, that sounds like my plant.... Our plant was built in 2004 and we just now upgraded our 700hp forming fans to AB VFD's They used to be 4160 soft starts and holy crap when we would fire them up (7 of them) the entire city of Shasta Lake would go dim....LOL

 

Allen Bradley, you can buy better but you can't pay more.

Sorry, I was a Phoenix Contact and Eaton sales guy for a long time.

 

Nice. We use SMC-Flex Soft Starts, but have moved to some drives with a 10min ramp times. The SMCs just don't seem to last anymore. Come to think of it, the Powerflex drives haven't been lasting either.

 

Started life as a mech eng in building systems at a large semiconductor plant then went back to school for modeling and control. Now do development work for gas turbine controls (power gen) on GE markvi and vie controllers.

For my brew setup I've been playing with a Click PLC from automation direct and have been very impressed. The plc is dirt cheap, simple ladder logic and I have it executing at 40ms. There are no pre canned PID loops, but I was able to write my own. They just added analog modules and rtd/thermocouple modules which weren't available when I first purchased the plc. I also interface it with the free IGSS hmi software and have it communicating via modbus rtu. Should be a slick setup once its finished.

I've got a couple jci metasys controllers that I inherited from a family member but no software to run them. I've heard that the sw is expensive but if anyone here knows better I'd be interested in getting those fired up.

 

Bahaaaaa That's funny...True! But funny none the less!


Cheers
Jay

 

Haha... I'll agree with half of that, you absolutely can't pay more. However, I'm sort of a Rockwell fanboy. I've got a couple of L71 processors on my desk at work right now and they are a pleasure to work with. So please enlighten me, what is better?

 

I do HVAC control systems and I can say that the Honeywell XL-10 (What I use for jobs) has many possibilities. It can control Security systems to lighting and even parts of your brewery process. It may take some time but you could even do parts of it away from home if hooked up to the internet.
http://cooljohnson.com/BuildingAutomation.html

 

I am a Sr. software engineer and systems architect for a game company.

I write software and do hardware design as well. I feel a bit out of place reading all the PLC/HVAC stuff you guys do.

I use all C/C++ in Atmel micro-controllers, write custom code and interface to Linux x86 machines for the big thinking: image recognition and processing, sound generation, networking, interfacing to the internet, etc..

Iv'e done wireless mesh networks within home automation, worked in the carwash industry, automated inventory tracking within campuses and a small bit working on time and attendance devices.

Also a ham radio operator.

 

. I'm a Power Plant Electrician. I don't do a lot with automation, but I do work with PLCs(Allen Bradley) and instrumentation.

Would mind sharing your Click Program so I can steal ideals from it?

I've been using the Koyo Click, Cmor Micro, AD frequency drive, and Solo temp controls. Everything was communicating with Modbus. Right now i'm redoing my panel to use a RTD module instead of the Solo temp controllers. It's really cleaning up the panel.

 

One thing Rockwell has going for them is that they support their products for a LONG time. Personally I don't think there is something better than the 5000's for the money. (disclaimer I also have very limited experience with other brands) When it comes to smaller items like patch cables,terminal blocks and power supplies, I feel there are lot better ways to spend your money. Unless you just like having AB stamped on everything in your panels.

 

Im a commercial HVAC tech but most of my experience with automation comes from Johnson Controls DDC. I also just generally like messing with electronics and have a bit of experience with arduino. i had planned to make an arduino based automated brew rig but since i now have a braumeister, i dont really see the need. until i want to upgrade the capacity of my system and identify the short comings of the BM to improve on a new system design, ill probably stick to what i have.

 

I'm a controls engineer for a consulting company. I fortunately get to do a lot of work for one of the big brewers (how can it be work if I get to deal with beer every day?) I've touched just about every brand of PLC over the years, but have the most experience with Allen-Bradley. My first system used a couple smart relays (A-B Pico) with stand-alone PIDs. However, several years ago I won a starter kit as a door prize from a local distributor that included a Siemens S7-200 PLC. Over the years, I've gotten expansion modules (thermocouple & RTD input & DC output) along with an HMI via eBay to complete my system. My system keeps evolving so that the latest version is all electric with two pumps, two solenoids valves and uses my CFC for both mashing and cooling. Still some bugs to work out, but that's where the fun is...

 

Wow all you guys seem to have a lot of experience in PLCs. But one thing that always puzzles me is what is the benifit of going for a PLC control (for our homebreweries, etc) over a microcontroller? To me the PLC seem more restrictive in both hardware and programing (but I also have no real knowledge apart from "they are programed in ladder logic, which is kind of like relay logic").
After look for the answer myself for a while all I could come up with is that in an industrial installation where they end product would likely be maintained by the site maintenacne electricians that PLC/Ladder logic has become the default standard - i.e. most of them know how to deal with ladder logic since it follows a similar methology of relay logic.
So is the reason you guys are using these because it is easier for others (or yourself since you have no learning curve to deal with) to deal with a PLC rather than lines and lines of code?

 

I don't think i know what you mean by microcontroller. I use that term for small PLCs. I don't think it's fair to say that PLCs are restrictive. Can you give an example? I use a plc because i understand the logic, and there are some great inexpensive options out there.

 

Sorry, I mean microcontroller as in the likes of Arduino (I realise that a PLC is a microcontroller ), I'm not trying to argue that nobody should be using a PLC for homebrewing but I want to understand the benifits/restrictions of using them (both for DIY use and industrial). The biggest benifit (and kind of the only definitive one I could find from the internet) was that PLCs are so common place now and built around a language that those maintaning the plants inherently understand due to its link to physical relay logic that it is best suited for the specific situation. For DIY/homebrewing I just don't see that benifit transfering so that anyone that does not have a PLC background would benifit from using a PLC.
What I meant by restrictive was, (hardware) for IO each point is dedicated to a digital input or a digital output or an analogue input... which I would see ending up with spare IO which could mean you had to buy more IO blocks than if you could switch between IO types. Another question is what type of temperature sensors can you use?
(software, and I am likely completely wrong here ) from the small amount of ladder logic I have seen it looked like mostly "if" type arangments. I guess this is not an issue for the core function of the PLC which is basically "if something happens do something about it", but what I have seen is if you want to add a touchscreen or something you need to purchase a compatable one that the "screen" is controlled by itself and is only sending requests to do stuff to the PLC.
I guess my question would be answered with the answer to another question, If I want to build a controller that will control the following, what would it cost:
8 actuated valves
5 temperature inputs
4 PWM outputs (heat elements / pumps)
1 flowrate inputs
1 touchscreen HMI
Both of these should be able to be done either with an Arduino or PLC, but what would the cost be?
For Arduino I would estimate for the controls side only, i.e. not including the actual valves, sensors, controlled equipment (roughly):
Controller - $50 (Arduino Due)
8 Digital outputs (valves) - $30 (relay board)
5 Digital inputs (temp) - $10 (misc costs)
1 Digital inputs (flow) - $10 (misc costs)
4 PWM outputs (heat elements / pumps) - $10 (misc costs)
1 amount of flowrate inputs - $10 (misc costs)
1 touchscreen HMI - $40 (3.2" touchscreen - small I know )
Total = $160

 

The out of the box PLC's can be useful in brewing but the software lacks the flexibility to do much more than simple process control. Beyond that and you are into roll your own software application to bring all the rest of the functionality into play.
While the Atmel processors used in the Arduino series hobby boards are handy, they are limited in what can be expected of them. For basic Brutus style single infusion systems as well as basic RIMS and HERMS systems, the Arduino platform can be made to work reasonably well.
When you get beyond the basic systems and need analog outputs for flow control you need more robust hardware. One approach is to use PLC type IO hardware like I have, and write an application to make it work, or design and build IO boards that connect to a tablet or laptop running a control application.
For me the Phase 2 system was test of hardware and software, Phase 3 project is to bring the same control functions to custom IO boards that have same functions as Opto 22 hardware, with tablet sized foot print.

 

Could one not PWM the typical PSC motors that are used on homebrew size pumps? This could be done with an Arduino, couldn't it?

 

Using PWM control with the small home brew type pumps would be quite a challenge because the relation to output vs. RPM is not a linear function. There is a term for the condition called "pump output curve", which in simple terms means as flow begins small changes in pressure create big changes in flow, as flow reaches maximum the pressure effects diminish and flow is relatively stable. For the .15 - 1 GPM range trying to maintain a flow by adjusting RPM would be quite an adventure. That is why a valve is easier to control flow with when pump is operated at stable operating point on curve.
For the Brewtroller platform, I would suggest the use of 2 digital outputs and a slow actuator to get what is known as floating control. This method has been around for over 60 years in commercial controls, and is still supported by many valve actuator manufacturers. The cheaper 12V ball valves and actuators are probably too fast to use as the normal time from stop to stop is 90 seconds for floating control actuators. If a slower actuator can be obtained then you would be set, fast ones for flow switching, slow ones for flow control.
Software control scheme would be to pulse output to drive actuator until process feed back indicates correct flow, no need for a home position as control will drive in correct direction at start.
For a PID control loop, PWM would be the ticket, the closer to set point the lower the "on" duration time of the output pulse.

 

I must say this has been one heck of a great read so far.

 

Been working in building automation for about 16 yrs now. lots of good stuff out there, have worked with Alerton, Andover, Automated Logic, Johnson, Honeywell, Trane and now lots's of Tridium.

EasyI/O is a really neat controller. Cheap, web based and lot's of points. Need Workbench to program but that's the problem with most building automation is you need licensed software.

Keep thinking of building something with all the parts i have laying around but i still like the simplicity of a propane burner. Looking at electric right now as i ran out of propane on my last boil

 

The Easy IO hardware looks nice, but the price is a bit steep for most. The Brewtroller and BCS systems are better bang for the buck when doing a Brutus 10 style system, not profoundly expensive, and have lots of user knowledge to draw on.
Beyond the Atmel platforms there are plenty of commercial hardware platforms, but the hangup is the cost and the time and effort to do the necessary programming to make everything work. Having built an automated gas fired system, I know the time needed to bring everything together to make it work, hardware 10%, software 90%.

 

Cost wise they might not be the best fit for hobby use, but I don't know of any process control you can't do with a PLC. They might be more expensive than other options, but i don't think they are less capable. Could you give an example of something a PLC can't do with brewing?

 

PLC's are great at process control, the software is the limitation to function flexibility. Claudius would be better able to address the ups and downs of PLC controlled brewing as he has a Siemens PLC controlled brewing system.
I have built a brew control system around Opto 22 hardware, (flexible IO configuration with modules), but that is just about all it good for. For the graphic interface I had to create my own front end application to handle all aspects of brewing while I am busy doing other brew day things as factory software was limited in function.

 

Some of the simpler plc's do have a limited instruction set, but with a bit of creativity its more than enough for brewing. The automation direct click plc is about as cheap as it gets but I can still code up pid loops, feedforward/model predictive control, and some basic filtering despite not having dedicated commmands/blockware. Granted if you want to run something like MIMO control your going to have to upgrade to something more pricy. I have yet to find a need for anything requiring MIMO in brewing though. If someone has implemented a funky control algorythm on any platform i'd love to hear about it. Regardless, pair a plc up with an HMI and you have a rock solid system.
As with anything we use what we know.

 

I guess its time for me to throw my hat into the ring. I am a systems engineer specializing in DeltaV DCS, both hardware and configuration. I also spent time as a residential electrician and E&I engineer in a chemical plant. My company currently handles the main brewery controls for the big boys (Miller/Coors and AB) out here.

We have shelves of old controllers and IO cards sitting around the office, a few other brewing engineers and I are planning to set up a fully automated rig to demonstrate our products - if only we can get the company to pay for it... It would sure be a big hit with the customers at the user exchanges.

 

I have seen a few convention displays that are "model" brewery setups showing off the companies wares. Have you asked?

 

Just started handling an account for smart home automation and building Automation, built and backed by a large German tech firm and software developer (cant disclose that yet). The products are still a little above me but I hope I can grasp it a little better. I have a degree in construction management and also been working in the embedded industry for a while now. I'm pretty excited about these products, definitely one of a kind and just been working on trying to get it UL certified.

 

How complex a brewing system are you planning?, basic 3 vessel single infusion rig, HERMS / RIMS recirculating system, or something a bit more complex like instant water heater 2 vessel system. Seems like there has been one successful PLC controlled brewing rig that Claudius has built, and a few others who have attempted PLC controlled rigs, not sure if they have succeeded yet. I have not seen anyone else build analog controlled brewing systems, all seem to be digital controlled so far.
Installation of control systems in facilities for Chipzilla, and other industrial customers has been educational and profitable, not always pleasant or safe working environments. You know it is a good place to work when you have to wear things like Nomex coveralls, Saranex chem suits with full face respirator, or carry an escape respirator for toxic gas at all times while you do your work.

 

I am an HVAC controls programmer by day and my RIMS brewery runs off of a honeywell PUL4024S spyder. works great. I communicate with it over a LON network and I have a "repurposed" Staefa TNM-2 JACE. graphics, email alarming for fermentation, the whole 9. I love to see the looks on people's faces when I turn on a pump or burner with the click of a mouse