Belgian Quad FG=1.038

Yesterday I moved a batch of a Belgian Quad from primary to secondary. I was hasty in moving it and didn't check the gravity until I had it moved to secondary and had cleaned out the primary bucket. Big mistake because as an after thought I took a sample from the secondary and found it to be 1.038. Here are some specifics: This is an extract recipe with an OG=1.10 with an expected FG=1.02. The yeast used was Wyeast Trappist 3787 which should be a good for high gravity. So given the OG I'm over 8% ABV but there's still way too much sugar left and I'm concerned it will be too sweet or I'll end up with bottle bombs. As mentioned this should get to 1.02 (actually just slightly lower) and an ABV over 10%.

What are my options?

Leave it in secondary and see what happends? I wouldn't think it wouldn't come down much more now.

Move back to primary and repitch?

Lesson learned to not rush things and ALWAYS check the gravity before moving but given where I am now I could you some help and suggestions.

Thanks

 

I think you have to repitch. And that 8% ABV is going to be a hinderance. I would suggest making a starter and pitching at the high Kraesen stage. Or, if you have something else fermenting, when that is finished, throw the Belgian on the yeast cake. Good luck!

 

I agree that I need to repitch. I don't think leaving it in secondary & hoping that it continues to ferment is a viable option.

My main concerns with a successful repitch are:
1) Repitching without the high ABV killing the yeast (which you mentioned)
2) Can I repitch in carboy or should I move back to primary bucket?
3) Repitch with the same 3787, a Safale with yeast starter or other?

 

You can always bomb it with 3711. That stuff eats anything. I think it would ferment a spoon if you stirred too long.

From the Wyeast website...

Make a starter and pitch at high krausen. The only thing is that it may take it lower than you want to go.

 

What's it taste like?

 

You could try slowly acclimating a monster yeast starter to the alcohol content by having the quad slowly added in over time to the yeast so that they have a chance to maintain their cell membranes against the alcohol. Makes sure to use a decent amount of nutrient and have a large starter because nutrient is essential in having a alcohol resistant yeast go higher than you intended. Just a suggestion.

 

If you decide to do a starter, I would go with a DME that matches your style beer, and the gravity that it's at right now, let it spin up for a few days, or until (as others suggested) the Krausen stage, and pitch. Good luck. I would hate to see a good Belgian quad not turn out right. I think you'll be fine though.

 

Hard to describe but it wasn't at all what I expected. With a gravity of 1.038 I was expecting something pretty sweet but it wasn't that at all. It reminded me of a RIS a while back that was pretty bland without a lot of character. The RIS turned out fantastic but too a long time to bottle condition and develop character so I hope this does the same.

 

I went to my LHBS and described the issue and they recommend I use a wine yeast (Lavin K1-V1116) to start up the fermentation. I asked if it would need a starter and they say "Nope, just hydrate and dump into the carboy." They said the characteristics of the wine yeast are neutral so it won't change the flavor and it's used to high gravity so it should kick start the process. So, now I'm not sure if I should use the wine yeast or make a starter from a beer yeast.

 

I dunno if I would use a wine yeast as that might impart some weird flavors. You might try heating up the brew in secondary. Get it up to about 75F or so and see if that drops it down some more. You could also try re-pitching at high krausen because that would probably get it fermenting again.

 

How do you feel about doing a smaller beer with the same yeast? Do like a Belgian pale or something, and skim off half of the foam at high krausen. If anything will get that down I bet it's a fresh top crop.

 

You might try the Lallemand CBC-1. That's supposed to be able to re-ferment to 12-14%. I haven't tried it that high yet, but I have successfully used it for carbonating pseudo-cask-style in kegs.


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As mentioned before, try warming it up to 75ish. 3787 likes heat to finish, and can be very slow to do so. What temp have you been fermenting at? Are you measuring your gravity with a refractometer?

 

I'd pitch the super yeast and warm it up. After that it's just a matter of hoping for the best. I wouldn't worry to much about esters at this point. Just throw in the yeasts wearing the "S" badge of glory and let the hero types do what they do.

 

It's been upstairs with a fermenting temp of 70 degrees. I've been measuring the gravity with a hydrometer.

 

3/30 update: Well, I weighed the comments on this thread as well as those from my LHBS. The LHBS recommended a dry wine yeast that is used to high gravity. So I went for it and....nada. Nothing. It didn't move the needle at all. Thinking I had nothing to lose I then went back to the recommendation of those here on the HBT forum and made a yeast starter from the 3787 Trappist (the same original yeast used).

HBT-1 LHBS-0

It's still not to the FG of 1.02 that I want but the needle has been moved. It's been about a week since adding the yeast starter and the gravity has moved from 1.038 to 1.030. Unfortunately it seems to have stalled again and I'm not sure what I should do. My options are:

1) leave it be for another week and take another reading
2) assume that 1.030 is as low as it's going to get
3) pitch yet another batch of the 3787.

At this point I think the safe bet is to just sit tight for another week but I have a feeling that if I don't do anything it won't change any. So, let's assume I'm patient and do nothing and it doesn't move. Then what? Do I assume that 1.030 is the FG or would the brain trust here think it might be worth it to try a fourth yeast to try and give it one more kick to near the expected FG?

The issue isn't to try and squeeze up the ABV as it's currently at 9.3%. My concern is that it still tastes pretty sweet. Of course I knew when I went for a Belgian Quad that it was going to be sweet but I'd still like to bring it down a little more.

Thanks and appreciate the feedback!

 

Did you try heating it up and waiting too? From the looks of it you still haven't tried heat. Really, put a heating pad under it or a space heater facing it and heat it up to 75-80 and see what happens.
Wine yeast can handle higher levels of alcohol, but can only eat simple sugars. A starter has to start out in a high alcohol and oxygen environment and can only do so much, but obviously helped.

 

I would heat it up and agitate the yeast into suspension a few times a day if you are able. If you are going to go a 2nd starter route you might want to try to make a starter that is the same strength as your current beer (eg just make a mini beer) and pitch that at high krausen, that way the yeast is already used to the alcohol environment.

 

If you like the Wyeast route their French Saison yeast is quite hardy and will chew through a lot of those residual sugars.

 

I heated the carboy up to 75-76 degrees but the gravity has again stalled at 1.030. So now the question is do I add yeast for the fourth time (#1 The initial Trappist 3787 #2 Wine Yeast #3 Trappist 3787 again) or call it a day and keg? While I'd like to get to the target FG of 1.020 I don't won't to do so at the risk of ruining the batch by over pitching. If however the consensus is that I couldn't hurt anything by pitching one more time I'd be inclined to try and drive down the gravity one more time so that the beer isn't overly sweet.

So...what say the board? Try and pitch one more time (and keep that temp up) OR keg it, carb it and start drinking?

 

Well you are still under attenuated. Wine yeast shouldn't really be able to do anything different from beers yeast. I would try pitching a different yeast like white labs 99 or wyeast french saison which are both good at fermenting down stalled beers. Because you don't really have that many more points to drop they won't really add any of their own character to the brew.

 

Yeah, I understand that the wine yeast should be no different than beer yeast. I think the reason for the suggestion from the LHBS was that the wine yeast is suited for a high ABV and as such might be more resistant to dying when tossed into the carboy due to the high alcohol.

By my calculation my current attenuation is at 70% so as you mentioned I'm under but don't have far to go. You mentioned the French Saison in a previous post. I am aware that this would be a good candidate for kick starting the stalled fermentation but hesitated as I was concerned that it would impact the flavor. Also, I would think the Trappist would have been just as good at finishing the job as the 3711 (French Saison). The Trappist has an attenuation range of 74-78% and the French Saison has an attenuation range of 77-83%. So they are close but since the French Saison has a higher top end it might finish the job. If, as you say, the 3711 shouldn't add any of its own character to the brew at this point then I'm game to try.

 

If you look at the wyeast website it says that franch saison is a good candidate for kick starting a stalled fermentation. It would not add really any character to the brew (from what I have experienced and spoken with LHBS folks about). You are comparing the attenuation level of the FS to the Trappist ale you are using, but something is not working right with the Trappist yeast so I personally would stay away if you are going to repitch. Wlp99 is also an option which is also a very high attenuator. In all reality you could try making a starter of wlp1 as that can usually make it to 10+ alcohol without any major issues. However, that all being said I would just go with the French Saison if you like Wyeast. The wyeast reps that I have talked to said that yeast among the best in their lineup in chewing through the last bit of sugar in most beers.

 

You are likely going to have trouble with any yeast additions now that Lavin K1-V1116 is present. It has a positive competitive factor (as most wine yeasts do) which means it's designed to kill any competitive organisms particularly other yeasts. This is why wine yeast should be the very last yeast added to beer (as in bottle conditioning).

I think you are down to higher temps and more time at this point.

 

That is an interesting point helibrewer, I didn't really take that into account/know about that. He was able to get the brew down a few more points by repitching the same Trappist yeast. This was after he pitched the wine yeast I blieve.

 

This is correct. I repitched the Trappist (my third yeast addition) after the wine yeast (my second). It took the gravity down from 1.038 to 1.030.

I'm just guessing but I'd bet the first pitch didn't get the job done because it was in the basement with cooler temps (i.e. 68). After I found out the Trappist likes it warmer I brought it upstairs and put a box over the top with part of the box sitting over a vent to heat it up. So, the second Trappist had the advantage of being in the desired temp range that it should have been. I thought when I saw the gravity start to go down that I would for sure get to my 1.020 target.

I'm in no hurry and at this point think I'll move the carboy to another vent that also has the added benefit of a large window that will provide some additional heat from the sun. It would probably be fine to keg at this point but something about not hitting the target just doesn't sit right!

 

Yeah I guess one question is, does it taste good? If you are kegging then you don't have to worry about bottle bombs if it starts to spontaneously re-ferment.

 

Add some brett

 

It tastes pretty good but real sweet. Of course I know that a Belgian Quad will be sweet but this is a little more than I'd like which is why I wanted to bring down the FG. I am planning on kegging this both to avoid bottle bombs and because my keg just became available.

 

That is really sweet for a Belgian quad. I just bottled a ~1.080 dark strong that I'm unhappy with attenuation. It made it to 1.013, I wanted below 1.010

 

I don't have much experience brewing a lot of Belgian beers but I do know that they can take a long time to finish sometimes.

 

If it were me, I'd rack off of the other yeast, and pitch WLP099. That stuff is a beast and should help you out. It's also fairly neutral, so it won't affect the flavor too much. I'd stay away from the 3711.

I've had success in restarting stuck fermentation with the 099. I even used it in a high gravity SMaSH that went from 1.096 to 1.009.

 

Well, I've tried just about everything mentioned on the board here with the exception of adding brett or repitching with 099. I don't won't to go the brett route as I've read that it's "a wild yeast that's known for creating funky, wild flavors." The 099 was a serious consideration but I'm not sure pitching a fourth time with a third different yeast is the way to go. I've stirred up the yeast, added yeast fuel and heated up to around 80 but it's stubbornly still sitting at 1.030. I think I'm down to kegging as is or swinging for the fences with beano. I know beano is a bad word in most home brew circles and should, if at all, be an absolute last ditch effort. As I understand it beano will dry out my beer (which I want because it is still too sweet) but comes with the danger that the gravity continues to drop past where it should be and might turn the beer into rocket fuel.

So, if kegging at 1.030 or adding 1-2 beano tablets were the only options left for you to consider I'm curious as to what others on here would select.

 

There is one more semi failproof option. Brew a 1.06ish beer with the same yeast, rack the stuck quad onto the cake after you bottle the small beer. If that doesn't work you can be pretty sure you've hit the fermentability limit.

 

I've read some more on beano & decided it's a bad idea. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do but if push comes to shove I'd rather keg it as is & take my chances with it being overly sweet. The lesson learned is to always aerate the heck out of your wort before pitching & also if it's a high gravity then consider a yeast starter.