Barleywine - English or American, what am I making?

So i'm venturing out and have made a 100% original recipe (not following any clones or anything of that sort). I originally thought I was going to be making an English Barleywine. I'm using a Dry English yeast (wlp007) and tons of extra light LME as well as 5lbs of various crystal malt grains, and some Special B grain. This all points to an English barleywine, however if the Brewer's Friend calculations are correct I will end up around 80 IBU. Does this automatically now make it an American Barleywine? Other than the IBUs, what separates an English Barleywine from an American one? I've done a lot of reading and it seems this is the only key factor. How important is it to fit into a style?

 

Unless you are entering a BJCP contest, it isn't.
What IS important is if you and whomever else drink it like it.

You didnt specify what hops you were using which helps to classify which style the brew will end up being, but i'd say that if it doesnt fit in the guidelines of english barleywine then yes it would then fall under american barleywine.

 

Post the recipe or at least a rough draft of the recipe. It sounds like you're right on the boarder between the two style, but heavy American hop additions would point to American style.

And did you really say "5lbs of crystal malts"? Even for a barley wine, that's WAY out of style and sounds like you will have a VERY high final gravity. I'd reconsider. That sounds like way too much unless you are brewing a very large batch.

 

the recipe is going to have five hop additions.

Warrior and Centennial in the first half of the boil and cascade, willamette and kent goldings in the second half.

As for the large amount of grains, the OG is predicted to be 1.125 which should keep it in the Barlewine style, with a target ABV of about 11-11.5%.

I guess my only question is that the IBUs being estimated at nearly 80 would put it out of style for an English Barleywine, though i'm using an english yeast strain and keeping everything else within the guidelines, so is it still an American Barleywine? I guess it doesn't really matter, I can always just call it a Barleywine and leave it at that .

 

If you're worried about BJCP guidelines then there's no point in venturing off into your own as styles are pretty well defined.

Personally, I would classify it by which yeast you use. Grains can be open to interpretation so using English base malts or crystals shouldn't make a difference. Hops mostly fade out by the time it's properly aged so it's just about bitterness there. If your IBU's are higher than BJCP numbers for English barleywine then you have an overly bitter English barleywine. The only real difference maker, in my opinion, is yeast.

 

Still sounds like an English Barley Wine, just a little more bitter. If you are worried about the style guidelines then just pull back your bittering addition a bit.

I'm still saying 5lbs of crystal is WAY too much, even for a barley wine. You should research the style a bit more. All that crystal will up your starting gravity, but it's also going to keep your final gravity very high. You're going to have a crazy sweet beer.

 

Hmm, I already milled the grains and bagged them all together, but hopefully the hop bitterness will sort of balance/offset the sweetness. I'm going to do a full boil as well. I may just try to plan for an extra gallon of wort.

As for trying to meet certain style requirements that wasn't necessarily my goal but was just more interested in what to classify this beer as since it toes some lines. Everyone's been really helpful. In 4-6 months i'll have an idea how the recipe turned out :/.

 

Since you already milled/bagged the specialty grains, I'd strongly consider just using a portion (maybe 1-1.5lbs) of them and then make up the difference in OG with more LME. I could end up being totally wrong on this, but it seems like a beer with 5+ pounds of Crystal would be close to undrinkable. Especially since I believe (correct me if I'm wrong on this) that a lot of extract is made using crystal malt.

Just my two cents though. Good luck with the brew. Cheers.

 

I'm in agreement with some others about the amount of crystal malt, but only under two assumptions.

1. This is meant for a batch of about 5 gallons.

2. This is really all crystal and doesn't include specialty grains like munich or victory.

Special B is a crystal malt with very little fermentability. I would say half as much crystal as you've stated would be a lot, but not unheard of. If you really have 5+ pounds of crystal in a 5-6 gallon batch, I'd mix it up thoroughly to keep the same proportions, use only half, and seal the rest up tightly for use on a future batch or batches. Even if you end up wasting a few pounds of crystal, it's better than wasting the whole batch on something that is hard to drink.

As for the style, you don't have to classify it, but your yeast is English and your finishing hops (though they'll fade) would be more of an English character. However, I think the English style tends to show more restraint in the use of crystal than the American style.

Usually, strong beers don't have much more crystal than those of regular gravity. It is the base malt which accounts for the big gravity.

 

Thanks so much everybody. I assumed that a big barleywine would want a lot of crystal malt since i was using extra pale malt as my base but upon further reading it doesn't appear to be the case. While I do enjoy thick and sweet english barleywines it does seem that my grain bill was in excess.

If I mix up the bag as best as possible and use 1/2 of it, it should break down like this:

13lb of extra light pale malt
1.5lb various crystal
.5lb carapils (dextrine)
.375 special b

Seem better? Hopefully I can get a good mixture after splitting the bag.

 

If you can split it evenly by weight then double the pale malt and special b, combine then divide in half for two batches which would net .75# of crystal and .25 dextrine per.

 

To give you an idea, I just recently produced a barleywine out of 95% two row (comparable to malt extract) and 5% caramel malts (of different lovibonds). The caramel malts by weight came out to be about 1.30 lbs and contributed a significant flavor to the beer.

 

Was the significant flavor a good or bad thing? I've had some pretty thick barleywines with a good bit of toffee/caramel notes and enjoyed it. Was it sickeningly sweet or just sweet?

 

just sweet. Last I tried it was a few days ago, after carbing for a month in the bottle. No carbonation yet, so I expect that it will be perceptively dryer once it's carbonated.

The caramel was just the right amount. I wouldn't have added a drop more. What happens is that the wort it self never completely ferments out, which gives you greater residual sugars. This also increases the effect of caramel malts.

 

Brewed this yesterday, used the entire grain bag and ended up with 1.112 original gravity (target was 1.127). The wort had plenty of hop character to it and it wasn't sickeningly sweet considering the amount of LME and crystal. We'll see how it turns out in a few months.

 

Well it will be an interesting one...

Out of curiosity, what yeast strain are you using?

 

I'm using two vials of WLP007 and a starter.

 

Looks like a great choice, but I think your malt might end up being what decides your final gravity- assuming you used a really substantial starter...

The website claims that it will attenuate to 80%, even in 10% ABV beers.

Just to give you some ideas about what to expect...

If your beer ferments out to 10% ABV, your final gravity will be 1.034.
That is about 70% attenuated.

If your beer attenuates to a full 80%, your gravity will be 1.022.
That will leave you with 11.7% ABV.

To be honest, with that much caramel/crystal malt I would be surprised to see the final gravity gets as low as either of those numbers.

Please keep me posted... at this point I am just really curious to see what happens.

 

When I entered my recipe into brewersfriend.com it estimated i'd finish up at 1.031 but it also estimated a bit higher OG. I'd be really happy to hit 1.031 though, I like my barleywines a bit on the thick side of things.

I'll definitely update everyone once fermentation stops

 

Wow, 5 lbs of crystal malt in a huge extract beer like that is going to be REALLY sweet!

The FG estimate just uses the average attenuation for the yeast you choose, or you can put in a custom rate. The actual attenuation is going to be influenced by many different factors (one of the bigger factors being the grain bill) and could be wildly different from what the software predicted. With that much crystal malt and that much extract, I would expect the attenuation to be pretty low. Maybe in the 60%-70% range.

You said you like thick Barleywines though right? Maybe it'll be right up your alley!

 

If you're making a starter, why waste cash on the extra vial?


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Would some Brett help out with the final gravity? I'm sure it wouldn't fit style for a barleywine, but it might get it a little closer to a reasonable finishing gravity. I don't have experience with brett, so I'm just throwing it out there for discussion sake.

 

Nothing wrong with some extra yeasties. It's gonna be hanging around in the carboy for several months, what's an extra 6 bucks?

 

I thought about maybe some champagne yeast if I don't get anywhere near my target, but I think it'll be alright.

And yeah, if it was a belgian base or something I might consider some Brett but a Brett Barleywine just shouldn't be a thing I think .

 

you can try champagne yeast, but it likely won't do much. champagne yeast can only ferment simple sugars. simple sugars are the first thing your 007 will attack, before taking on the more complex sugars. so by the time you add the champagne yeast there will be little or nothing for it to ferment. furthermore, the champagne yeast will kill off the sacch, because of something called competitive factor (see the last two paragraphs of this page: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/yeast_compet_rating.asp, there is also an excellent BN episode with Shea Comfort on this: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersarchive/dwnldarchive11-23-08.mp3). so you'd be killing off the yeast that could potentially ferment the complex sugars, and replacing it with something that can't. adding wine yeast makes sense if you're going to be doing step additions of simple sugar after primary (with the goal of boosting alcohol content).

 

So I don't think I have to worry about having an active fermentation. Checked last night and the lid of the fermenter blew off from the pressure. My fermenters are in a temperature controlled freezer so i'm hoping there wasn't much exposure to bad stuff, but we'll see. I guess i'll have a sour if there's an infection :/

 

if it sours, it might not be a bad thing!

But it will not likely sour. You're fine!

 

Interestingly enough I have barley wine that I just split into secondary last night, made using WLP007. Even with a reused yeast cake from a pale ale and good aeration I was only able to get about 77% attenuation (about 10.3% ABV).

Oh and I split it with one half getting Brett C (I think a Brett barley wine might be interesting, also Brett C is the original English strain).

I used about 5% crystal, 1.25 lb. I feel like i could have used less since I like drier beers, and i may pitch some WLP099 into it (would also help with the carbonation).

 

So I checked the gravity on the barleywine and it's gone from 1.125 to 1.038 in 4 days and was still noticeably bubbling. I think it's going to end up where I want it. The wort tasted pretty awesome too, not nearly as sweet as people were letting on.

 

I thought you said the OG ended up being 1.112? That's good that you liked it! Hopefully it will turn out well for you! Let us know where it ends up finishing.

 

Ah you're right. My target OG was 1.125 but it ended up at 1.112

Will keep everyone posted

 

That is pretty freaking exciting. I wait with bated breath.

 

Try aging some of the batch with Brett to get stock ale. Even Brett and lacto for strong dry sherry and sour notes would be true to old British style.

 

it slowed down and is at 1.035 as of yesterday morning. I'm going to crank the temperature up to 69 from 64 and see if the yeasties wake up and go from there. It's only been fermenting for a week so hopefully I can get it to drop some more points.

 

awesome, dude, you are almost sitting at 70% attenuation.

 

reading 1.032 this morning. almost about time to move it to the glass carboy and let it hang out for a month or so before bottling. sitting about 10.5%, has a nice mouthfeel and taste already. I'm really excited for this one! Will take another reading on Monday and if it hasn't dropped i'll move it

 

I wouldn't have given you two cents for that fermenting so low. It's a Christmas miracle!

 

I'm excited! It ended up at 1.029 by the time I actually got it transferred to the glass carboy. I'm going to give it a month and then bottle it, rather than secondary it for a few months i'm going to do longer conditioning int he bottle I think.

 

Had my first taste of this last night. It's not cloyingly sweet, or really that sweet at all compared to some other barleywines i've had. It has a really nice toffee flavor and some brown sugar as well as some breadiness. I guess finding the right balance is possible even with a ton of crystal malt.