Banjo Burner/Honeywell Pilot Valve Heat Shield Question

Hello everyone, I am building my Brutus style stand and I am using the Honeywell pilot valves, and the big 10 inch low pressure Banjo burners. The distance between the bottom of the burner and the Honeywell valve on the gas piping is probably going to be around 7 inches away from each other. Does anyone know how hot the Banjo's get under the burner and if they throw a lot of heat downward? I will be using needle valves to control the flame height on both the MLT and HLT burners, so they more than likely will not be full throttle open.

If anyone has the same kind of setup with Banjos and pilot valves, do I need to put a heat shield between the bottom of the burner and the Honeywell valve? Or is 7 inches away not a problem with the heat interfearing with the valve? Any feedback is appreciated.

John

 

I know Kevin (Kladue) is gonna get tired of me referring this stuff to him he is the man on these honeywell valves and what not. But here is my rig. No explosions YET

 

Wow nice rig!!! You did an excellent job. Thanks for answering Simphoto, this will help me out a lot. I see you have no problem with the valves being close to the burners. I am happy you did not blow yourself up

Thanks again,

John

 

I've been running one under the HLT on two different rigs, my home sanke based and Club 1 barrel sized, for 8 and 5 years, respectively. No problems due to heat, but it IS a good idea to protect them from water, overflows, boilovers, etc. Also, it's a good idea to put a drip leg in the piping between the burner and the Honeywell valve. This would consist of a simple tee in the line, with the perpendicular part pointing down, with a short lenght of tube or pipe, and either a cap or shutoff cock. Condensation (and/or water raining down on the burner) will then fall down into the drip leg, instead of flooding - and ruining - your auto valve. You can guess why I know this...

 

Try to keep the Honeywell to the side of the burner if possible and low enough that the hot gasses will not be hitting it as they escape the keg skirt and frame. A modification of the keg skirt that will greatly improve performance is to make 4 to 5 1-1/2" holes in the skirt between the rolled rim and the weld, this lets the hot gasses out and lets the flame run across the bottom. Placing the holes in an area away from the plumbing on the back side of the keg makes standing next to and stirring much cooler. If you are into fabrication you could make exhaust boots like I did and vent most of the hot gasses away from the brewing area. If you want to see how it was done I have a couple pictures showing the burner in action and the exhaust boot for the newer system.

 

Good idea Fletch. I did see the drip leg diagram in the installation instructions that came with the Honeywell valve. I have not seen anyone utilize this in their builds yet so I did not know if this was only for a when the valve is used to control a furnace, as they are designed to control. I have not put the plumbing together yet and I think I will take your advice and go ahead and incorporate the drip leg in the plumbing. You probably saved me from a future valve problem.

Thanks for your reply!

John

 

Thanks Kladue, I will look in your gallery to see how you made the exhaust boots. If it is not there maybe you can send me a link.

Thanks again!

John

 

Anyone have a parts list and wiring diagram for this? I have been looking to PID control a Propane HLT for a while. Also is this rig HP or LP?

 

The systems using Honeywell valves use low pressure propane or natural gas as the valves can only handle low pressure propane at 1/2 psi of pressure. I am going this route using the Honeywell valves, with pilot light and thermocouple heat sensor for safety, and a low pressure regulator on a 20 lb. propane tank to convert the gas to low pressure. Of course I have to use low pressure burners also. If this is what you mean I can get you a part list. Many people go the high pressure propane route and use high pressure burners. Hopefully one of the members using high pressure can chime in with their advice with high pressure systems. There are some excellent threads I can dig up for you on wiring, gas control (gas control for dummies is one of them) etc. if you want.

 

Thanks. I found a couple of the threads. I think I was/am still confused about the comparison between HP and LP propane.

 

No problem, we have all been there. In fact most of this stuff is new to me and it takes me a while and a lot of reading and help from all the good people here to understand all these new terms and how all these things work. I have learned so much since I started building my system (and you will to) and I have a long way to go, but is not only challenging, it's also a blast!

Another way to explain high pressure and low pressure propane is that when you use a 20 lb. propane tank like the kind used in gas grills, it comes out of the tank at high pressure. This is good for turkey fryers and some grills. Many solenoid gas valves operate at high pressure allowing them to open and close to let the propane gas flow through to the burners. People using high pressure propane burners with high pressure propane solenoid valves, also use a high pressure regulator that has a built in knob that controls the psi output from lets say 0 to 30 psi, either on the tank, attached to the main gas beam, or pipe manifold if they did not use the stand tubing as a gas beam, to better control the amount of gas going to the burners. They also use a gas ball valve or needle valve attached to the pipes before each burner for further flame control.

Honeywell and other standing pilot furnace valves are used in natural gas and propane gas heating systems in many homes. These valves are also being used in many brewing systems (thanks mostly to Kladue, you rock brother! :rockin: and Sawdustguy who have posted and shared their knowledge on these valves, how to wire them, etc) and offer an excellent safety feature. The pilot light that is attached to each burner has a thermocouple heat sensor that the pilot light flame touches. If the pilot light goes out (like on a windy day) and your Love, Auber, computer program, (or whatever electronic temperature control switch you used), tells the valve to open to let gas flow to the burner to make the burner fire up, and the thermocouple heat sensor does not detect heat from the pilot light, it will not open up the valves. If you didn't use the valves with the thermocouple heat sensor, then the valves would open when the switch sent a signal to open, and the gas would be pouring into and out of your burner. If the burner next to this one then then fired up when it's switch told it to then the accumulation of gas coming out of the neighboring burner (with it's pilot light out) might ignite, and there is a possibility of a very large explosion. (A home in a city near us, had a 20 lb. propane tank explode in a garage and the whole house was completely leveled. This was not a brewing accident, but the whole house was gone after the explosion. That got my attention when I saw the camera footage on the news. I couldn't believe the destruction and how powerful the explosion must have been, all from one 20 lb. propane tank!)

Because the furnace valves like Honeywell offer this safety feature many people are choosing to incorporate them in their build. Others do not think that the accumulation of gas is large enough to stay around and it dissipates into the air and the explosion risk is minimal. I chose to go the safety route, as I am not an expert on any of this stuff and I would like to be around to keep brewing and not blow my family up! Since I wanted to use these furnace valves for safety, I learned that they only operate at 1/2 psi of pressure (yes you read it right one half, .5, or one half of one psi of pressure). The valves can not handle or operate correctly at higher psi (I think the higher psi pressure blows the seals). This low pressure psi requirement forces you to make the high pressure propane coming out of your propane tank and convert it to low pressure, hence the low pressure regulator. You can still use gas ball valves and needle valves on the gas pipes going to the burners for increased flame control, but these ball valves and needle valves only control the amount of gas going into the burners and flame size, and does not convert high pressure to low pressure.

Here are some links to threads that might help:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/understanding-high-pressure-versus-low-pressure-propane-157415/

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/low-pressure-ignition-system-wiring-diagram-153752/

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/gas-temperature-control-dummies-116632/

Hopefully this will clear some of this high pressure, low pressure stuff up and you can understand it better. If not just let me know. I am not an expert on this stuff but I can hunt down some more links/threads, or put you in touch with the right members who are experts and know what they are doing. I know what it is like trying to understand some of these concepts that these brewing systems utilize and trying to grasp how some of these technologies, equipment, parts, and engineering all work. After all we are working with propane gas, fire, electricity, and water all together, and combining them so close together goes against everything common sense, the laws of nature, or your teachers ever taught you about safety!!!! The things we do to brew excellent beer


John

 

Awesome.. thanks.

 

Your welcome! Oh and here is another great thread with an example of the correct Honeywell valves, electronic transformer, and other parts, that go together if you want to utilize the safety shut off features that these furnace valves offer.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/tem...g14-piloted-honeywell-valve-questions-167050/

There is a lot of information here and even some wiring help and a tip for using a three position switch to manually fire the valves for testing, or when you want to fire the burners without using the pid temp controller.

Cheers!

John

 

I'm going to use the same Honeywell valve on my Top Tier system (no pilot thermocouple). What size copper tubing and fitting did you use for the Pilot Tube? Also, is it a simple compression fitting?

Thanks.
Jason

 

The pilot gas tubing is normally aluminum, not copper, and very soft, which enables it to be threaded through furnaces, etc, without cracking. Of course, people have used copper successfully. The fittings are not typical compression fittings, as they are male. It's called a breakaway ferrule, here's a store with a good picture of one.

If you're salvaging the parts as I have done several times, you'll want to get new ferrules, they may leak if you reuse them. And of course you'll need two - same fitting is used at each end of the tubing.

 

I bought a 1/4 inch aluminum tube kit that contained 5 feet of tubing. This was plenty long enough for my two automated burners with the Honeywell valves. My boil burner is manual and not automated, so no tubing was needed for that burner. The compression fitting comes with the kit but one also came with each of my valves as well. You need to buy a tube cutter. Most cutters that cut copper pipe will also work on aluminum tube (it should say so on the package label that it will cut aluminum also). Here is the kit I purchased and a link to the site.

http://www.pexsupply.com/Robertshaw-11-293-1-4-x-5-Pilot-Burner-Tubing-w-Fittings

I hope this helps.

John

 

Simphoto02,

What burners are you using and do you have a pilot burner connected to the end of your copper pilot tubing? It almost looks like your burners are high pressure but your using low pressure Honeywell valves?

Thanks,
Jason

 

The 10" cast burners can be switched between high pressure, low pressure propane, and NG by just changing the gas orifice fitting. High to low pressure is as simple as a drill bit or a $8 conversion valve from W.Brewing supply. the pilot burner uses a compression fitting for attachment to the 1/4" copper or aluminum tubing, look on the underside for the connection point.