20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

Fair enough. Science is cool.

 

Has anyone tried using Turbinado sugar for doing this rather than just white table sugar??? Thoughts?

I bought a 6-7 LB bag of "Sugar in the Raw" from Costco yesterday and was thinking it might make for a fun/interesting experiment.

 

I think someone mentioned earlier trying it with less refined sugars. If i remember correctly i think they said it can be done, but that you need to be careful because the less refined sugars tend to burn more easily.

 

I bought a packet of the Dark Candi D2 syrup to compare with my attempt at the Double Boiled Deep Amber (Sugar #5 Recipe).

My DB Deep Amber is very dark, tastes a bit tart and sour, and just a little bitterness and burnt flavor. Though I went to 290*F, it matches the description for the 300*F mahogany. I want to try it at 280*F and see I can get it like the Deep Amber is described.

The Dark Candi D2 is also very dark, but not as thick as my syrup. The flavor is quite mild compared to my syrup, there are raisin and dried fruit notes, without tartness/sourness or bitterness; it's a little bit sweeter and with a finishing flavor that's a hard to describe.

I used a pound of my syrup in a belgian amber/brown ale that's going to get bottled soon and I look forward to finding out what kind of flavors the syrup contributes to the finshed beer.

 

Thin yours out with some water so that it is comparable to the D2 before making comparisons. If yours is more concentrated that could lead to a perceived difference. Mine has never had a sour or tart taste to it. My wife, an habitual sugar abuser, loves what I make and would have picked up any off flavors like you describe. Maybe your was burnt? I use some DAP and some vitamin C powder. I bring mine to 250 in a pressure cooker first to invert the sugar and then proceed from there. The one time I didn't do that step it got ugly and crystalized on me. Mine is for use the next day so I add water to thin it out to make it easier to pour.

 

I've got a question that was asked before, but never answered.

I have Wyeast yeast nutrient, but no DAP. Do you guys think this could work?http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=15

 

My guess would be no. It is a blend of different things. Citric acid, vitamin C, even lemon juice should work. A small amount should not affect the flavor that much and could even be 'better' in some beers.

 

In what amounts would Vitamin C or lemon juice be used?

 

That would take some experimentation. I use half DAP, half vitamin C and it works out well for me. If you have a pressure cooker it is easy because you don't have to worry about temp control for this. You can tell the difference if it converts because of the taste difference. If it inverts it no longer tastes 'sugary'. It also won't crystalize.

 

How do you use your pressure cooker. I'm always looking for a way to use mine.

 

Sugar, water, acid. Put in and bring to temp. At 15 lbs pressure you will have a very lightly colored syrup. This just negates needing to check the temperature. I start all of my syrups this way. The one I didn't turned into a crystalized mess at one point.

 

So when it starts hissing you turn it off?

 

Yep. You just have to reach the temperature. I also use this to invert my sugar for priming. No 'proof' that it goes quicker, but it sure seems to carbonate faster if I do this, plus, it really isn't extra work with a pressure cooker doing the temperature control. I use as little as 1/4 teaspoon of DAP or Vitamin C powder for this. Could probably go less. Just don't use too much water or you probably won't drop the ph low enough.

 

Just wanted to bump this one back on the radar. I just made my first batch of Dark Amber and probably wouldn't have done it without the help of this thread.

Thanks to all for the info on this one. Can't wait to make my Belgian on Monday!!!

 

Today the brew shop was out of dark candi. I picked up a bottle of citric acid because I'd heard of using that to make it. I also got a bottle of yeast nutrient because, well I don't know why.

Then after reading this thread, and learning about the difference between caramelization and melanoid production, I used the yeast nutrient instead of the citric acid, and the syrup came out great.

So thanks to everybody for their advice. I can make that dubbel now, after all. Oh, and it cost me maybe <$1, instead of $6.

 

I hate to admit this because this seems like such a simple process, but I've failed 3 times at making this stuff (doing 1lbs batches). Has anyone else had issues with the sugar basically becoming a solid or chunking on them?

I'm trying for the 290 degree one using just everyday cane sugar my wife had. Boiling it up to 290 goes well but when I add in the water once it hits 290 everything goes to crap. The 1st time I just plain screwed up but the 2nd time I thought all went well until I woke up the next day to a brick of caramel colored sugar. The third batch I tried tonight ended up having chunks of sugar in it when I went to take it off the stove after heating it back up to 240.

Any ideas on what's going wrong here?

 

This only happened to me one time when I didn't invert the sugar in the pressure cooker first. It was a mess but I finally got it to work. Made up my mind to always do the inversion first. Haven't made any since though to confirm that this is why it happened.

 

In the beginning stages of this thread Snickasaurusrex mentions that this stuff doesn't have much of a shelf life. From what I remember, he was referring to making the candy and using it right away. Others mentioned not doing the last step of bring it back up to temp and having better results as far as shelf life goes. When I made my batch of Amber, I put it in a mason jar for a week and a half before I got around to using it. It was a real SOB to remove from the jar. I think if I was to do it again, I would pour it out on some wax paper and after it sets up crack it into pieces and store it in a ziplock bag or just use it right away.

 

To keep it liquid try doing the double cooked method or going more slowly to get up to terminal temperature.

 

Thanks Snick. I've used this twice now, and couldn't be happier about the results. Made dark amber for a dubbel and light amber for a barleywine this morning.

 

Wanted to quote myself for those who are having crystallization issues.

 

wanted to add another data point. BTW, someone should really clean up the recipes and make this a sticky!

so I finally got around to making some of the modified #5 sugar (shelf stable) using turbinado sugar. can't find the post as this thread has gotten LONG, but basically 2# sugar, 2 cups water, bring to 310, add 2 cups water, bring to 290, 1 cup water, bring to 240.

Once the sugar dissolved in the water it looked the color of a nice pale ale wort. temp stayed around 260 for a LONG time. it took almost an hour to get the temp to raise to 310. probably spent 45 min at 260, then the rise to 310 happened very very quickly. I had to manage not to boil over during the initial 45 min. the whole time getting to the first temp there was serious ammonia coming off the mixture.

after first water addition ammonia started to dissipate. eventually leaving a toasted marshmallow smell. took about 20 min to rise to ~290. added 3rd water addition and came to 240 in about 2 min. flame out. color looking great...like espresso with nice brown creama on top. cooled and put in container in cabinet to wait for brew-day (hopefully this weekend).

couple of notes on final product. I'm not getting a lot of dark fruit smell/taste. I get a bit of bitterness, sourness, little sweetness, toasted marshmallow, maybe a little bit of a raisin smell/taste. did I overcook this?! I wanted to cook up 2 batches at the same time, one with regular sugar, and one with Turbinado, but I was low on cane/beet sugar, so just did the single batch with Turbinado. I'll have to try again using plain sugar.

 

I recently made the #5 sugar, with minor adjustments for my altitude. Has anyone (OP?) tried heating and cooling more than twice? I think the #5 compares favorably to the dark candi D syrup, but I'm trying to get closer to the D2.

I'm sure I'd hit a point of diminishing returns through heating and cooling multiple times, and didn't want to reinvent the wheel if someone had tried this before me without good results.

 

Someone linked to a thread a while ago that had the US maker chime in. He just mentioned 'repeated' heatings and coolings and claimed nothing at all was added to the sugar.

Just posted these in another thread earlier:
http://www.food-info.net/uk/colour/caramel.htm
http://www.food-info.net/uk/colour/maillard.htm

 

Hermit, thanks for the links. I do vaguely remember reading something from the Dark Candi guy on another "candi sugar" thread.

From my very limited knowledge of caramelization, I don't believe his claim that nothing else is added. How can you make a syrup that is both highly fermentable and very dark by heat alone? My uncle worked at Heinz as a food scientist, so I've picked his brain a little bit about different caramel syrups. He's most familiar with the kind of syrup they use to color soft drinks, which is caramelized to the point of having no sweetness left. I haven't talked to him since I found this thread, though, so maybe he has some more insight.

 

so got around to brewing with the sugar I made (see my post a few spots above this one). I used 1# of home made #5 (made with Turbinado sugar) and 1# of actual D2 candi sugar syrup. there was really no comparison...the D2 blew mine out of the water I'll try a few more times (what have I got to lose?!) but mine was not even close to the depth of flavors coming from the D2. the color was about the same FWIW.

 

jpoder, why did you choose 310 as the terminal temperature for the first half of the #5 procedure?

I wonder if differing densities between the D2 and your homemade syrup had anything to do with the difference. I tried to buy some to compare, but my LHBS was out of it. Even if I had gotten some, I had no idea how to compare them apples to apples. As mentioned before, if the homemade stuff is thicker or thinner, there's no way to draw an accurate comparison.

 

I was following the modified #5 posted HERE in the thread. I was nervous about the high temp with the turbinado sugar, but didn't get the smoking or bitterness that other posters have complained of.

Are you thinking I went too high, or too low? Millard reaction is supposed to go to 320...should I try to go higher? next time i have a free night, I'll try doing several batches with different temps, and with refined and unrefined sugar and will repost my results.

 

Jpoder: I'm thinking you went too high, for a couple reasons. Turbinado has impurities which will burn easier than sugar, even if it doesn't taste bitter or smoke, they still probably burned, leaving a less-than-good taste.

Fructose will start to caramelize at 230*, which glucose will start at 320*. If you fully caramelize them individually, you will get the same end result, which is basically just food coloring. But between 230 and 320 you will caramelizing the fructose, but not the glucose. Maillard reactions will happen at room temperature under the right conditions, although they become more noticeable at higher temps. So if you could make the same syrup, at the same temps with only glucose, you would only get the Maillard-reactions, and no caramelization. If you did this with only fructose at the same temperatures, you would get a mix of caramelization and Maillard reactions.

I think (with my very limited knowledge) that the problem with the stove-top approach to replicating the D2 syrup is inability to change the ratio of glucose to fructose. This is something industrial sugar producers do all the time, for different reasons, but in this case I think it would allow you to better control the ratio of caramelized sugar to Maillard-reacted sugar.

I think I've seen just fructose sold at whole foods or something similar. Not sure where to get plain glucose, but it'd be interesting to play around with.

EDIT: just remembered dextrose is glucose, and is readily available.

If I don't get dextrose before I make the syrup again, I'll try hitting a lower temp than 290 (280 @ my elevation), and cooling and heating multiple times until I get the right color/flavor.

 

This point is very important to why there is so much confusion, and how relatively unknown the effect of DAP on homemade candi sugar seems to be.

DAP is used in at least one method of sucrose purification. Specifically, I have seen at least one article in my internet wanderings that specifically implies the belgian sugarbeet industry uses this method.

Purely as conjecture, it is my belief that if you start with sugar/syrup from the manufacturer that is a byproduct of the crystal purification process...you can honestly state that nothing else was added in the manufacture of the product. Your DAP was already there, leftover from the purification.

As an additional datapoint, I have made this >4 times. I made a 7oz batch with 2TBSP of DAP, and did 4 ramps. I primed a dubble with just this. It is both noticeable and excellent.

240F is too high to return to and get a workably thin syrup at my ambient conditions. Room temps, the stuff is about as thick as lme.

As to process issues I ran into and overcame:
Adding water too fast for cooling can cause the sugar to harden and not dissolve into the water. A royal pain, a lot of stirring, and some potential for burning, all rolled into one.

If you ramp too quick, or don't get a good dissolving initially, you may have a slushy crystally mess up to quite hi temps. Re-add enough water to get down to the 220F range, stir well. It will take a fair amount of time to get back to 260 from there.

The suggestion to go descending max temps in sequential ramps is good. After a ramp to 290, I lost some aroma by going up to 300. I went from toasted marshmallow aroma to more of a rummy caramelly amaretto flavor. Still good though.

Keep it covered while cooling. Loss of water will encourage thickening.

I tried ammonia bicarbonate, but the batch turned out completely bitter. It did smell good, but flavor was disgusting. I may give it another shot, as apparently there are others that have experienced this with only DAP. Any ideas what the confounding factor is for extreme bitter flavor?

 

Ysgard, what temps did you hit at the peak of the ramps? I was thinking of trying four ramps on the next batch @ 290 > 280 > 270 > 260 to try to maximize Maillard reactions and minimize caramelization. I think that would get me closer to the dark chocolate flavors in D2 syrup, but I guess we'll see.

 

I was reading through this thread, and there is a lot of info on how to make it, and even how it tastes.

What I am really wanting to know is if anyone has actually used this in their beer (specifically a Belgian), and if so did it give the same effects to the final product as the store-bought stuff (deep fruits, etc.)?

There is a wide-spread distributor issue with the Belgian Candi Syrup supplier, at least here in the US. I have some brews that I need it for, and was going to make it on my own, but I have yet to really see anyone report back after using it in their brew with how it tastes in the final product.

Anyone have any tasting notes for their brews?

 

I tried doing a 4 stage sugar last night...actually 2, one with table sugar and one with Turbinado. it was interesting that the Turbinado took much longer to reach the target temp at each ramp.

basics were that i used 1 LB of sugar, 1 cup of water, and 1 1/2 tsp of DAP for each. temp targets were 290, 280, 270, 260. once they hit the target temp I added 1 cup of cool water (knocked the temp below 240 after stirring)

The end products were remarkably similar despite one sugar being less refined than the other. The color is dead on for D2 syrup (used motor oil black, with a brown/red slight foam on top) taste, however still seems a bit lacking. very sweet (almost a sour/tart taste), but no dark chocolate flavor.

Don't get me wrong, these are not bad (and I've used them in my beer (resulting pending...)), but they don't seem to be a D2 clone. I'd like to try changing ratio of glucose/fructose and trying again. any other ideas to try?

 

Since this thread is really long and cumbersome to navigate, I've started my own thread with some of my variations:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/#post2588870

I think I'm onto something with the dextrose idea. I was able to get a lot of Maillard reactions without too much caramelization.

 

So I have a question. I have some jaggery in my house that is kitul jaggery which is palm sugar. This stuff is already dark, could there be any ill effects from cooking it like you guys are doing with white sugar?

 

It burns at a lower temp...go easy on the darker colors.

 

Why the declining target temps? What if one were to do a multi-stage rest increasing, like 260 and cool, bring up to 270 and cool, bring up to 280 and cool, bring up to 290 and cool? I looked around, maybe I'm just missing something.

 

You are bringing it just below the smoke/burning point at each successive rise. I'm sure someone else can give the food science explanation, but in practice the burn point is lower. You are trig to maximize the maillard reactions at each stage so want to go as high as you can without burning the sugar.

 

I just made some dark amber for the first time, I took it nice and slow and everything came out very nice. My candy thermometer is a POS though, its at least 20 low. I stopped mine when I got the color as posted way in the beginning of this thread. It tastes great, is very raisin like with no bitter or burnt flavor at all. I had very little crystals in the pot when I was done, I attribute this to really taking the temps up slow. It took about 1 hour 15 minutes. I did not bring it back to temp after the last water addition, I just let it go to room temp. Im making this http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/caramel-amber-ale-167880/ tomorrow as my first all grain and am very excited.

Ill report back.

 

I followed the instructions on this thread and made three batches of this syrup. The first I added to a dubbel that I made which, resulted in a moderately high final gravity (1.016). The second batch was very bitter which I think may be due to heating too quickly. The third batch tastes great, but when I did an experiment to see how fermentable it was, nothing happened. All of the batches of syrup that were made were the dark version (either brought up to 290* once or twice).

A good friend of mine has been experimenting with this recipe as well and his dark syrup did not ferment either. He made two sugar solutions, one of the dark syrup and one of sucrose. Both solutions had a starting gravity of 1.050. The sucrose fermented out almost completely where the dark syrup lost either 2 or 4 gravity points.

Any ideas? Thanks