2 SSR's blew up on me last night

I posted this in the wiring diagram thread but figured it might get a few more views and possibly more help starting my own thread. I wired everything just like it shows in the diagram below and when I plugged in the element to the brew panel I made and flipped the power on I heard a click like a switch of some sort was working but never saw the red led light come on the Auber Instruments 40a SSR. About a minute later I heard a loud bang and the GFCI tripped in my house panel. I unplugged the main wire going to my brew panel and opened the box up and found the plastic cover for the SSR was off and black. I have no idea what went wrong but scary to say the least. I don't know if this matters but the only thing I changed out was the DPST toggle switch for the element power to a 4 pin since I couldn't find a 6 pin toggle switch like it suggests. Could that have been the problem with the wiring? Or could it be that there is not a solid ground between the wiring in the box outside my keggle and the keg itself? What could I use in place of that toggle switch since I can't find that kind anywhere. Any help would be appreciated. Hopefully the pics of my panel wiring doesn't make anyone cringe but it was a tight fit for everything I had to put in there and the wiring started off much much nicer. I'll get a bigger panel some day


IMG_0787 by Ludahchris, on Flickr


IMG_0786 by Ludahchris, on Flickr


Auberin-wiring1-a13-SYL-2352-4500w-RIMS by Ludahchris, on Flickr

 

I'd suspect a switch problem, but if L1 or L2 went straight to each other or to neutral/ground, the breaker wouldnt have waited a minute to trip (And if it did, it would be a real exciting minute). The GFCI tripping after a minute tells me that the SSR probably started leaking to ground and it tripped. Check the switch wiring and SSR wiring. Could you have the SSR in backwards so that you have 220V on the 5V (Signal) side? Even that scenario is unlikely, if you put 220V on the signal 5V side, it would blow up the internal opto-isolator and that would be that - very little if any smoke. The small wires from the PID should go to the side with the red light while the big wires to the element hook up to the opposite side.

How close are you to Puyallup?

 

I'm in Spanaway off mountain hwy back behind wally world

 

Do you have a link to the toggle switch that you used? I am wondering about the specs. I could see this being the issue.

 

The reason I am leaning toward the 4 pin switch is I am wondering how it works internally. You said it has 4 pins. So when it is in the off position are all pins open and when in the on position pins 1-2 and 3-4 closed? I am thinking it is more like a toggle where in one position 1-2 are closed and 3-4 open. Flip the other way and 1-2 open and 3-4 closed.

If that is the case. That is going to be a problem. You would have been sending power down half the 240 leg and it could have come back on the ground and caused lots of issues. Because the power wasn't coming back on the other leg of the 220V the GFCI should trip which it did. I am shocked that it didn't pop immediately. That in theory could have been enough of a load to trip a regular breaker. A GFCI breakers are much more sensitive. If it detects miliamps in difference from what is coming back from the legs and neutral it should trip.

 

http://zorotools.com/g/Panel-Mount ...d Size Panel Seal and Flatted Lever/00065111/

If this is the wrong switch and since I already have the holes for the toggle switches what would you think is the right switch?

 

Do you know which one it is? The link took me to a page where they have a huge list of different versions of the switch. There may be one on the list that is right but I am wondering if which specific one you used to see if it makes sense as a possible cause of the damage.

 

At first I thought it might of been the ground on the outlet box I installed on the keggle but all day at work staring at the wiring and some pictures I took... I mean working hardI came to the conclusion it was the switch because that was the only thing I changed on the diagram. I think your exactly right about the switch but needed someone to explain it to me like you did. The only other switch I can find is a dpdt switch which is not clear to me how that would work for my wiring but is a 6 pin.

 

On PJ's diagram he has a link to the NKK switch on digikey's site. Did you check that out?

 

My phone hates the site for some reason but it's the mfg#s331r and zoro part number G0696534 hope that helps.

 

Not too far away - I'm in South Hill near Canyon

Send me a note if you need a hand tracking it down - I dont have any spare low voltage input SSR's but I have a meter.

 

I did a quick search at some of my usual sources for stuff like this. I found this one which looks to meet the requirements.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMvudeGI7i40XGort1gkgk11B7UtCDbC7nY=

It is likely the NKK switch that the person above me mentioned...

 

Tried that at first but it kept coming up with a discontinued part number so because i'm a newbie I figured a toggle switch is a toggle switch and ordered the one off zoro tools site.

 

If you wired the switch so that the 220V went to ground, I dont think the breaker wouldnt have took a minute to trip. It would have tripped nearly instantly.

 

Yeah, it sounds like a direct short between the switch and SSR I think.(maybe, I don't know)

The switch is NKK S821

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/S821/360-2096-ND/1007153

 

Thats interesting - on the Zoro tools switch site, there is a switch with four lugs, rated at 250V 25A, but its a DPST?

____
\_____
____

Is that the switch?

 

I tend to agree. I would think it would have tripped right away. The only thing I was thinking is that he said in the first post that there wasn't a solid ground so it might not have sent 220V to ground right away.

 

That switch is also a DPST - you need a DPDT

 

Very good possibility - grounded through the SSR via the heat sink.

 

The first link shows exacly what I need but digikey site only shows it at 120v unless my phone hates that site too. As for tbe breaker tripping tbe second time I tried it I switched to tbe other outlet on my panel and wben I plugged it in the ssr popped and the breaker popped instantly.

 

So looking at the data sheet for that NKK part number I see it shows that the pinouts for the switch are like this.

On 1-3 4-6 Off _

This tells me you should have continuity between 1-3 and 4-6 when the switch is in the on position. Which is what you want.

Any chance you had the wires mixed up?

The NKK S821 which a couple of us have pointed out shows a pinout like this on the data sheet.

ON 2-3 5-6 Off _

Here are links to the datasheets.

S331R
http://www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/stogglesmedhighcap.pdf

S821
http://www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/stoggleshighcap.pdf

So this means that the pins are labeled differently between the switches and then there is the fact that the S821 is a 30A switch and the S331R 25A. I don't think the A is the issue. Possibly the wires on the wrong posts unless you used a meter to verify.

 

Dont plug it in anymore...

I'm guessing from the sound of it that the SSR is going straight to ground now. let me look at the wiring diagram for a second..

 

If you look at the link I posted from Mouser I think I linked to the same switch. It is a 240V switch. I went to Digikey first and couldn't find it and then went to Mouser. I order stuff from both places. Digikey possibly didn't put the right info out there which is why I posted links to the manufacturer data sheets as well.

 

How would you wire a DPDT? Would I wire it like the diagram shows? But then which way would I flip the toggle to make the element turn on if up and down are both on ?

 

He needs a DPST as the diagram calls for not a DPDT.

The DPDT would be an on-off-on switch. He just needs a on-off. When "on" the two pole pairs need to close at the same time. He is using this as a manual contactor.

 

Double Pole Double Throw switches are like two seperate switches.

Double Pole Single Throw switch is only one switch, the center can connect to one pole or the other.

I'd have to look at what you have with a meter to see whats going on.

Do you have a meter? If so, put it on ohms scale and see what the switch is doing.

 

The diagram clearly shows two throws on each switch with two poles being unused on each switch.

 

As I mentioned, you don't want DPDT. DPST switches are not nearly as common. Because of this most people will think (assume) it is DPDT when they see the 6 pins. It is important know the differences and know what switch you have. Externally they look the same. You would have to know part numbers or better yet verify with a meter.

 

I should be able to turn the power on to the pid's and set them up and then flip the toggle switch up and turn the element on with this diagram correct? If so then I can see the reason why I needed a 6 pin vs a 4 pin toggle like I am using aftering looking at the wiring more.

 

This is a DPDT switch - the red x's are mine addition.

 

If you look at the diagram Switch 1 & 2 are the ones we are questioning. They are labeled DPST. Double Pole Single Throw. As in both contacts are completed with a flip of the switch to "on". This is needed to complete the circuit for both sides of the 240V circuit.

 

If you want to check your PID's do the following.

On the diagram, remove the two red wires from the terminal strip that provide power to the SSR's. Remove the two blue wires that go to the switches from the other terminal strip. This should remove power from the SSR's and elements. Then you should be able to plug it in and see if your PID's are OK - I'm sure they are.

PLEASE unplug it before putting your hands or a screw driver into the panel. I cant stress this enough. Also - I dont know what wire colors you used, I am referencing the colors on the schematic.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch

DPST


DPDT


EDIT: I see what you are saying though. Either would work. The DPDT if you don't have anything connected to 2 points it would technically be the same thing as a DPST. So we are both kind of right.

 

This.

You need the specified DPST switch for this diagram. A DPDT would be for if you were going to toggle between two elements. This is just an on-off application.

Edit for sennister's edit: Sure, you could make a DPDT work but it's not what's needed and I think under the circumstances it would be more confusing than just following the diagram.

 

EDIT - I stand corrected - looks like for the last thirty years of fixing machinery, I've had poles and throws backwards. I always thought it was the throw that moved and the poles were stationary because thats what I was taught. Learn something new everyday - or in this case - re-learn.

Chris - if you need a hand with this, I'm not working this weekend and could help.

 

Actually a DPDT would work.

We were each confused a bit I think. The diagram shows a DPDT. That is what atoughram is going off of. The label is DPST. That is what I am going off of. A DPDT switch flips the hot from one side to the other I miss-spoke in an earlier post thinking only one side would be hot. If no wires are hooked up to the other side of the switch well then technically it is the same thing as a DPST switch. An open is an open. You would have a few energized contacts in there with a lot of juice so a DPST is probably the "safer" way of doing it. Not that it is a good idea to messing around in the panel with it powered anyhow.

 

Now that I think everyone has the switch figured out...

I think you need to check the pinouts of the switch. If they were numbered and you went with the numbers on the diagram the switch is wired wrong. Check it with a meter to be safe. With the panel unplugged. You will want to use the Ohms setting to look for continuity (a complete circuit) to see what pins to what on the switches and make sure that they are wired properly.

In this diagram if everything is working, yes, you would be able to flip the switch off, program the PID and then when you are ready for the elements to actually fire (you have water over the elements. Then flip it to "on" and the current will flow to the elements. As long as it is "off" with a properly wired DPDT or DPST switch, current will not be able to flow to the elements.

You don't have to have 6 pins. You can if that is what you had. If you had a switch with 6 contacts then only 4 would have a wire attached to them. The other two would have no contact with wires as they are the contacts that are energized while you are in "off". Where a DPDT switch would be used is if you had a single PID and single SSR. You could use a DPDT switch to route the power from the RIMS tube to the BK.

 

The toggle switches I have only have 4 pins and because of the wiring I would think there was power no matter what way the toggle switch position was in? With the 6 pole I could see how the power would be cut off completely and then turn on when I flip the switch which is what I need to buy now. I will order new switches to replace the ones I have in my panel now and then I will probably hit you up to take a look at the panel and my sweet wiring job I got a good milk stout on tap for you to try but can't guarantee there will be any left by the time the switches and new SSR's get here. I am brewing Saturday morning on my propane ghetto system and my garage will be open if you want to stop by no problem.

 

If you look at the diagram that you have which show DPDT switches, you will see that there are only 4 wires connected to the switch. You can get DPDT if you want but you will have 2 contacts with nothing on them for when you are in "Off". The label for the switch was DPST which just have 4 contacts. A DPST has two pairs of contacts. Both these pairs have the contacts closed when it is switched to "on" both are open when on "off".

 

sorry for being a newbie but now I think I am a little more confused. Correct me if I'm wrong but your saying the 4 pin switches that I have now should of worked just fine? The wiring is like this right now hot to the ssr then ssr to pin 4/5 , pin 1/2 goes through a 240 panel light then to the plug at the bottom of my panel, pin 3 goes to the plug at the bottom of the panel and pin 6 goes to the other leg of the hot.