2 row does not equal DME

I have done extract and all grain batches for many years now. IMO, for most styles there is no difference in quality between a well done extract beer and a well done AG beer. AG batches tend to be thin and watery when not done well (from not compensating for low efficiency, not adding enough body enhancing malts, mashing to low, etc) and extract batches can be too sweet (mostly from boiling all the extract the entire time, which leads to caramelization, instead of using 70+% of it as a late addition)

Here's my dilemma. I have many extract recipes that I really like but a few, one in particular, I want to be able to replicate exactly when I brew it all-grain. It was absolutely the most phenomenal IPA I have ever brewed, and to be quite frank, one of the best I've ever tasted. I want it to be a 100% clone if possible.

I won't bore you with the full recipe but here is the malt bill.

3 lb Dry Malt Extract - Light (4L)
0.5 lb American - Vienna (30 min steep @ 150)
0.5 lb Maltodextrin - (late addition)
5 lb Dry Malt Extract - Light - (late addition)

O.G. 1.067 F.G. 1.012 SRM 5.21

Now if I change the recipe to delete the DME and change it to 11 # of 2 row @ 82% efficiency to hit an O.G. of 1.067 the SRM drops to 3.84. Its not a huge difference but enough of a difference to make me wonder. The DME is not only slightly darker than 2 row, it also leaves a bit of residual sweetness and body. I had a friend that loved this beer so much that he decided to clone it, except just subbed 2 row and did an AG batch. It was not the same beer. It was very good but something was missing. It lacked body and depth. So my question is this:

How can I rewrite this recipe to come as close to replicating Briess light DME as possible? Here's a guess

11# 2 row
1 # carapils
.5 # vienna
.25 # C 40

This comes out to very close to the same O.G. and SRM as the extract version. It includes extra dextrins to enhance the body that seems to come naturally by using DME (perhaps when they are making DME they mash a little bit on the high side and therefore introduce dextrins) and a tiny bit of crystal malt to simulate the small amount of caramelization that occurs when DME is made (from the boiling down of the wort).

What do you think? I would love to hear any suggestions or recounts of experiences anyone has had with this.

 

Maybe a little Pale Ale malt in place of 2row and Vienna?
I should be sleeping right now.

 

First off, greetings from Maryville, amcclai7 The way you've worded your post, why not just continue to brew it using extract??? If it came out that good, why tinker with success, and there's certainly no shame in using extract, at least in my eyes. Used to be a homebrewer up north, been making mead since we moved down here from Detroit City...

 

Extract tends to finish a bit higher than all-grain. Mashing a bit higher, maybe 154, would probably give a good approximation of a DME batch.

 

I would suggest using a bit of Munich 10L to make up the difference instead of crystal 40. Only way to know for sure is try a couple different things until you happen to get it just right.

 

I'd try substituting the DME with 90% pale and 10% dextrin, mash 152. I wouldn't be adding any new crystals or Munich as those certainly aren't represented by the DME or any perceived carmelizaton from boiling DME. If that isn't malty enough, maybe try the dark carapils (dingemans 8.5L) or some U.S. pale ale malt (say 80% pale, 10% pale ale, 10% dextrin).

 

Don't they add carapils to extracts for color and head retention?

 

Most DME has some carapils in it. Try adding some carapils to you recipe and ypu should be close. Also mash a little higher like weezy mentioned.

This should get you close.

 

Briess golden light dme is base malt and carapils, nothing else. I agree with the above suggestions. Mash high and add around 8-10% carapils.

 

Carapils doesn't add color, really... and while it aids in head retention, there is a percentage of it in DME already so why double up? You typically don't see head retention issues in Extract ales.

 

Briess tells you the ingredients in the DMEs:

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#GoldenLight
or
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWGoldenLightDME.pdf

Unfortunately, they only specify "Base Malt" but given the color of the extract you may be looking at a blend of Briess Brewers Malt and/or Briess Pale Ale Malt. I would start simple (all brewers malt) and work towards blends if it doesn't meet your expectations.

As for color differences calculated by brewing software (5.2 vs 3.8), extract inherently produces a darker wort due to oxidative factors that take place during the drying and shelf life. DME is better at negating these factors but still has some. A simple color fix would be to use a debittered black malt (black prinz, midnight wheat, etc) in the smallest amount (0.5-1.5 oz) to get the shade darker color you're looking for.

Lastly, if you're after a 100% clone then there's no better way than to simply keep that recipe as an extract recipe. Afterall, you cannot recreate Briess' malting, mashing, boiling, freeze drying techniques on your system (or anyone else's). If, OTOH, you're looking to get as close as possible then you're on the right track to recreating as all grain.

Good luck!

 

That was my point...guess I should have worded it better by saying that extract has carapils in it for color and head retention

 

I had the same sort of idea when I moved to all grain... I HAD to reproduce the amber that I had grown to love from extract brewing. Sorry bro, but you will never do it. you will come close, and these folks have made some very good points. but the truth is that within the first 5 brews you will begin to see the differences that can be made by slight grain and equipment adjustments and you will likely make a beer that you enjoy more than the original extract brew. So, I guess I am just saying take the advice these guys have given you, but take it with the understanding that it just aint gonna happen and it will be better for it.

 

I realize it will probably never be a 100% clone. Briess uses some crazy technologies to create their DME http://byo.com/issues/item/1101-making-malt-extract and i'll never be able to replicate those at home. However, by taking some of the advice above I should be able to get a very close approximation. I have done AG batches before and do agree that with some styles the results can be better than extract. The reason I am so interested in replicating light DME is the simple fact that every IPA I have made with it has turned out incredible. I know IPA's are all about the hops but a DME IPA has such wonderful body, head retention and just the tiniest touch of residual sweetness, but without the terrible caramel crystal malt flavor, that is just perfect IMO.

P.S. I like crystal malt but I think it goes horribly in IPA's. I'm glad that my first suggestion of using a tiny amount of it has been corrected.

 

This is an interesting experiment. I might have to try it! Also, I'm not overly worried about the color. I was just using it as a way to figure out what malts might help replicate DME.

 

Briess DME is 99% 2 Row and 1% Carapils FWIW

 

Hey! I grew up in Maryville actually. Have you been to Blue Tick Brewery yet? nice guys that run the place, the atmosphere is cool and they sell homebrew supplies. To your point, there is no shame in extract at all but I will be moving up to a much larger system soon and the cost of extract could be prohibitive.

 

I saw that one the link above but 1% carapils in a AG batch ain't gonna do ****. A batch made with DME usually has the head retention and body of an AG beer with 10% caraplis or more. Must be something in the process of production (high mash temp??) that adds the body.

 

As far as carapils is concerned, you would be adding the 1% carapils needed to produce and equivalent of 8lbs DME (or 1.067 wort). In the case of a 5 gallon batch at 70% efficiency, that would be in the realm of 2 oz or a smidge more. Bumping this to 4 oz (2%) and you'll definitely have imparted additional body to your beer. Add this to your maltodextrin charge in your recipe and you've still got a beer with medium-full body. If you then coupled this with an elevated mash temperature (155-157F) then you're resulting beer should have plenty of body.

Something like 13.5 lbs of base malt (base + vienna), mashed moderately high, with a half pound of maltodextrin powder and additional 4 oz of carapils WILL have noticeable body.

At least, that's my take on it

 

I agree. I do want to keep things somewhat in check though. I love a beer with a solid mouthfeel and body but it still is an IPA. The carapils and maltodextrin are supposed to add body without sweetness. Mashing high adds both. Body I want sweetness I don't. I'm thinking maybe mash @ 152

 

This has not been my experience with mash temperatures in general. I find sweetness comes from A) grainbill poundage and OG, and B) specialty malt choices. I've mashed at 157-158 and produced a dry beer, including beers that finish at 1.018-1.021. Mash temp primarily affects body, final gravity, and to a VERY subtle degree the residual sweet. Body of beer is the primary factor in the sweetness effect; as the body increases, so does the perceived sweetness. At least, this has been my experience.

Also, I've found crystals to have different sweetness contributions to beers. In general, British crystals impart the least amount of sweetness, followed by German/Belgian crystals, then American/Briess, and then Chilean/Patagonia. A beer brewed with 1 lb of Briess 60L will be much sweeter than the same beer brewed with equivalent British crystal (Crisp 60L). I suspect it has something to do with the difference in kilning/toasting/roast of Crystal vs Caramel malts (Briess provided a good description on the differences between the two).

 

That's good to know. makes sense too. I love my English bitters and will use up to a pound of British 60L or 75L in them. For an american pale ale (I know they are different styles, but still) Even a small amount of american crystal makes me want to gag.

 

Yup, live not too far from there.....these days I make meads, so I only pick up basics from them - bottle caps, assorted bits as they wear out, break, whatever (hydrometer, siphon stuff, airlocks, etc) as they're geared toward beer brewers as far as yeasts, etc. Yeah, I like having a microbrewery here in town, it's pretty cool, and most of their beer is pretty good - did not care for whatever saison I tried, but it may be that I just don't care for saison For more wine/mead making supplies I truck up to FermentStation in Knoxvegas or order online

 

First thing i notice is that the grains (lb) dont match the DME (lb)
3 lb Dry Malt Extract - Light (4L)
0.5 lb American - Vienna (30 min steep @ 150)
0.5 lb Maltodextrin - (late addition)
5 lb Dry Malt Extract - Light - (late addition)

O.G. 1.067 F.G. 1.012 SRM 5.21

Now if I change the recipe to delete the DME and change it to 11 # of 2 row @ 82% efficiency to hit an O.G. of 1.067 the SRM drops to 3.84. Its not a huge difference but enough of a difference to make me wonder. The DME is not only slightly darker than 2 row, it also leaves a bit of residual sweetness and body. I had a friend that loved this beer so much that he decided to clone it, except just subbed 2 row and did an AG batch. It was not the same beer. It was very good but something was missing. It lacked body and depth. So my question is this:

How can I rewrite this recipe to come as close to replicating Briess light DME as possible? Here's a guess

11# 2 row
1 # carapils
.5 # vienna
.25 # C 40


3 lb Dry Malt Extract - Light = 5 lbs of base (2 row)
+ 5 lb Dry Malt Extract - Light - (late addition) = 8.3333 lbs of base (2 row)
8 lbs of DME = 13.333 lbs of 2 row. Not 11# noted above.

so, my newbie, mind tells me that your a few lbs short on 2 row.

new recipe:
13.4# 2 row
1 # carapils
.5 # vienna
.25 # C 40

 

It all depends on efficiency. The 13.4 # number you gave is roughly correct for a system getting 70%. The higher the efficiency the less grain you need.

 

I did find this Briss webpage on extract contents. I'm assuming "base malt" is pale 2 row.

 

What's the rest of this amazing recipe?

 

Ummmm.... I've always shared recipes in the past but Idk about this one. I will tell you the techniques I use with my IPAs now: Never under any circumstances use any crystal malt. Vienna and Munich are good alternatives but only use them as 5% or less of the bill. Use 5 - 10% of the malts specifically for body and head retention (carapils, etc). An ABV of around 7.5% or a bit less is perfect to me. Get 30% or so of your bitterness from FWH and a very small 60 min addition (hop extracts are also a good choice). 70% should come from 15 to 5 min additions. Don't use flameout hops or if you do make them very sparing. Instead do a hop stand (wait till the wort drops to 180F, throw 3-4 oz of hops in, cover the pot and let sit for 30 mins, then chill the wort) I use Conan yeast. My god!!! Ferment in the low to mid 60s for 17-21 days. Finally, dry hop in the fermenter AND the keg, mostly the keg. Do not use a secondary. this needlessly introduces oxygen to the beer. Also, if you have a hop you really love do all this with a single hop. I've found that this leads to a more interesting flavor profile. All the nuances and subtleties of one hop are highlighted instead of just getting just a "hoppy" taste and aroma. In any case, I would never use more than 3 hop varieties in one IPA. A final very important point is that your water needs to have somewhat hard profile with a fair amount of sulfates. Its does NOT need to be burtonized. That's a bit over the top. However, adding some gypsum and CaCl in the correct proportions (There's tons of literature about this out there) will make a world of difference. I brewed an IPA to all of the above specifications but without gypsum. It was still a good beer but the bitterness was more harsh and punchy. The flavor was also two noted: Harsh bitterness in the front, nothing in the middle and the characterisic citrusy hop flavors on the end. It was still good but the drinkability suffered and the full boquet of the hops were not displayed b/c the bitterness overwhelmed them.

I brew A LOT of IPAs. I have read more than you can imagine about hops and have taken trips to the West Coast just to drink IPAs and talk to the brewers. I have went to hop festivals, etc. I LIKE IPAs!!! I could just give you a recipe but I think this collection of the best tips I have learned about and tested over the course of 5 years would be more useful.