1st brew started! I still have a few questions...

Hey,

I'm new to the forum, i've been stumbling upon lot of you guys thread lately as I was searching for info to brew my first batch ever. Glad to now be part of the forum

So I've started the brew last tuesday (2 days ago) and everything seems to be going great so far. Here is my "recipe":

Brew in a 56L demijohn:
-2 X Coopers Canadian Blonde beer kit exctract
-2kg of brown sugar
-46L (23L for each kit) of water
1 and 3/4 pack of yeast provided in the kit (i kept the rest for later)

I did make a starter for the yeast 1-2 hour before mixing everything in the demijohn, using 350ml of water and 15-20g of brown sugar. I mixed it in a 500ml measuring cup, put a plastic wrap over it, poke 2-3 small holes, and i went on doing other things... I came back like 30 min later and it was alive! Seriously, there was foam on the table all around the cup, I will know for next time to use a bigger cup But overall, I really think using a starter has help thing going on faster. It was producing bubble after a few hours.

Here's a few pics:



*Thats the starter just after i mixed it


*after an hour or so, i had to transfer some of the starter in another bowl


*A few hour after everything has been mixed

This is the yeast i used:

*Anyone know what is the name of the strain in this kit? Or is it cheap yeast that i should not used again if i can find something else?

So everything seems to be ok for now, but i still have a few questions about the rest of the process...

QUESTIONS:
1- I've been thinking about using maple syrup, maple sugar and honey for priming sugar. I've read in the instructions provided with the kit to use 8g of sugar per liter, they say white sugar can be used. Do I need to use 8g of maple syrup or should I use more considering syrup is sugar already diluted in a little water? And what about honey? And for maple sugar, is it similar to white sugar?

2- How do i proceed for priming sugar; do i put the sugar directly in the empty bottle, then pour worth over it to fill the bottle, the cap it, the shake it to dissolve solids? Or should i mixed priming sugars in some water first?

3- I do not have an hydrometer yet, but i followed the exact recipe and should end up with something around 5%. But is there any way of determining/calculating the exact final alcohol % using only base ingredient amount, without ever knowing what specific gravity was?

4- Almost everyone is using star-san for sanitizing bottle before bottling. Can i instead wash the bottles and sanitize them with steam by letting the steam flow in it for a certain amount of time? If so, how much time?

Let me know what you think about my brew, and if you can help with any questions i asked, i will really appreciate... Thanks

 

Welcome! As far as your yeast question I have never seen that brand. But don't ever be afraid to play around with all the different yeast strands out there until you find one you like! I have become a fan of California Ale and Irish Ale yeast!

As far as priming is concerned, honey and maple syrup are all different and all act differently. Make sure the maple syrup is real maple syrup. And I have always used more maple syrup than sugar. Never primed with honey though.

Estimating your ABV.. You will need OG and FG to calculate. If you do a lot of math and know the attenuation of your yeast you can get around a general Idea of what your ABV could be.. But you also need to know your efficiency (which requires your hydrometer)

 

And for sanitizing.. I went to the closest restaurant and bought a gallon of their food safe no rinse sanitizer.. Works great and not too expensive!

 

I have no idea what the OG was, I now realize I should have kept a sample of the unfermented worth in the fridge. I will get an hydrometer in a few days, i would have probably been able to tell OG at that time. Anyway i'm gonna stick to the estimated 5% they mention in the kit instruction.

But maybe it can be less, i guess brown sugar contain a weaker concentration of digestible sugar then lets say white sugar or HFCS, as most of unprocessed VS processed food of the same type do. So can it mean less sugar = less ABV?? (btw, what does ABV stand for? i know its end product alcohol %...)

And my syrup is 100% local maple syrup. But still i'm not sure if i should use 8g (don't even know how many MilliLiter is 8g of syrup) or more per bottle...

 

This time i only used bleach. But the demijohn was somewhat already clean. I bought it from a wine maker and there was no trace of residue.

 

ABV is alcohol by volume versus by mass/molarity which is the other way to measure it but is rarely, if at all, used in brewing.

Brown sugar is mostly sucrose which is a different sugar than maltose which is what most of what comes from malted barley. Both are digestible, but they need different enzymes to break down so having both forces the yeast to do both. Not a problem tho.

As for maple syrup, which is also mostly sucrose, you'll need (wait for it) a hydrometer to determine the sugar concentration to calculate the right amount to put in. The difference between a legally minimum syrup and a fully evaporated syrup can be a lot. I should warn that I'm not sure that a beer-making hydrometer will be able to measure at the densities where maple syrup lives.

You asked about steam in your OP: It will work, but it has nothing to do with time and is instead all about temperature. You will need to monitor the whole surface with something like an infrared thermometer to make sure you get your 15 seconds at 161°F (72°C). I wouldn't chance it personally.

You're better off sticking to bleach. Many on here will yell at you about using bleach, but I use it without issue. The only reason I would recommend a no-rinse sanitizer is if you have untreated (I.e. well sourced) water at your tap. Chlorinated water sources are plenty clean for rinsing without boiling.

 

Cooper's yeast is quite fine; it's not in their business interest to package bad yeast with their kits. Additionally, it's generally very fast and flocculates extremely quickly and tightly. I had a Cooper's stout kit that finished in less than 60 hours. Furthermore, making a starter isn't required for dry yeast - there are already enough cells to do the job.

Your ABV is going to be fairly low and the beer will be a bit thin. With Cooper's kits, it's best to make your total volume 20 liters. Even 18 liters is better. Anyhow, here's some reference: 1.7kg liquid malt extract (the same size as in Cooper's kits) will yield 2.7% ABV at 20 liters. My estimate is that your ABV is going to be somewhere in the range of around 4%. If you want to raise it closer to 5%, you can still add another 2kg of sugar - just funnel it in and be done with it.

 

Here's a great sugar priming calculator showing about anything you'd want to use. Go by weight and not volume as it's much more accurate.

I've primed with honey. Use water. I use between 1-2 cups of water brought to a boil, pulled from the heat, added honey/sugar, stirred well, and brought back to a boil for just a second or three, and then cooled.

You'll want to add this sugar solution to your bottling bucket prior to siphoning your beer so that it mixes fairly well. I still use my long handled spoon to give it several gentle stirs (don't aerate or splash) to ensure it's well mixed.

Hydrate your dry yeast with warm water next time. For 11g bags I generally give it 12 oz to a pint.

I used bleach before I bought Star-San also. Just don't allow it to sit too long in plastic as it will absorb the smell/flavor, and ensure you rinse well.

 

Maybe Ican dilute a specific amount of syrup with a specific amount of water and then extrapolate the OG of pure syrup with some math. I'm gonna have to check that...

Ok, so i'll forget about steam, but I still want to use the less possible amount of chemicals in my brew process. So will putting the whole bottle in boiling water at 100C for more then 15 sec work?

I think 4% will be just good, as this batch is planned for a party i'm having next weekend at a chalet up north. The planned is to have the beer ready to drink for next friday night, at most for saturday. And we will have the whole to drink, so 4% will probably be enough

And BTW, this morning I saw some change in the demijohn. The "boiling" has slowed downed, the foam has almost dissapeared, and temps has gone a few deg down. Here is a pic:


Is this a sign that primary fermentation is soon gonna be finished? I was aiming for bottling on this saturday, am I being too optimistic?

But wouldn't that mix the bottom deposit back with the worth? Or you let it precipitate again before bottling?


I know i ask a lot of question, so thanks for helping, i'm gonna drink one for each of you helping me so don't over help me...

 

Notes: What you did is called rehydrating dry yeast. A starter is a different process used with liquid yeast.

You should have used all the yeast.

You should look online for priming sugar calculators to determine how much to use.
Here is the one I use: http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

Your beer will not be ready for at least another 4 weeks. It takes 10 - 14 days to ferment (or longer) and another 2-3 weeks to bottle condition. (three is likely/better)

I would make other plans for the party and enjoy this beer later.

 

Not sure how I missed posting the link kh54 did. It's the one I meant to, and it's a great one!

As was mentioned you'll need to find another source for beer as it takes some time, though kegging can shorten that. The general rule of thumb is 3 weeks to ferment, 3 weeks to condition, and 3 days in the fridge to carbonate. More complex beers or ones that are much stronger often call for a longer period of conditioning. And I prefer a week in the fridge.

You'll need a bottling bucket that you'd add your priming sugar solution to and then siphon the beer out of the demijohn leaving behind the trub.

 

That is a damned fine idea. Since maple syrup is mostly sucrose, you may even be able to get an idea of how much sugar there is by making a simple sugar syrup of the same density. That is assuming you can't find any online calculators.

That should take care of it. I would wait more than 15 seconds though. You have to ensure that you wait the 15 seconds after the surface temperature has reached the mark. I would say that 2-minutes should do the trick. A 20-second rotation with 6 bottles at a time would make that a relatively quick process. Also, make sure you don't suck too much heat out of the boiling water with too many bottles at once.

I would have to agree with the others on this. You're trying to rush the process way too much. I would, as a rule, allocate 6 weeks minimum for any batch of beer. You might be finished with the primary fermentation by Saturday, but I don't know of a way to tell that by Saturday. Ideally, you really should get three identical gravity readings on three consecutive days to ensure your fermentation has stopped. However even after your primary has finished, you'll want to let it sit for a week or two to let the beer mellow.

You will want to rack your beer to another container without pulling that stuff out of your carboy when you mix in the priming sugar.

 

Now I'm confused, in the kit instruction they says max 7 days for primary fermentation at 23C (if i remember correctly, i dont have the instruction with me right now) and they say 4 days at a temp of maximum 27C, and i tried to keep temps around 25-26 with a heating pad. And i read about people doing all grain brew going from boil to drinkable bottle in less then 2 weeks.

Is it risky, in termes of contamination, to transfer lets say half of the demijohn to a second container, add priming sugar then bottling the primed half, and let the other half rest for a few more weeks?

Like that i'll see the difference and i'll have something to drink for the chalet. Maybe not the best quality, but if its drinkable its ok... and don'T worry, there is probably gonna be other "source of alcohol" for the night, we are celbrating two of my close friend birthday at the same time, and one of them is turning 30

edit** Please let me know what you think about this half and half thing.

 

Primary fermentation is likely done within 7 days, but the act of fermentation creates off flavors. Most people will leave their beer sitting for another 2 weeks so that the yeast have time to go back and eat what they created when all of the sugars have been consumed.

And conditioning generally takes 2-3 weeks easily, which is the time for the various flavors to meld nicely.

There are a few simple lower ABV beers that can be done a bit quicker.

Many kits come with these quick time tables knowing many will turn them down seeing how long it can actually take to make a good beer.

Were you to bottle a portion of this it will likely not be all that good, and certainly not as good as it would be.

 

Well those brew to drink in 2 weeks involve simple beers that are rushed, then kegged under high pressure for a couple of days before lowering to serving pressure.

Beer kits always seem to give a very short timetable. Generally it is attributed to wanting to sell you another kit asap.

I would put a minimum of 7 to 10 days for fermentation. I consider 14 days minimum and usually go 3 weeks or longer. You may get some carbonation in 1 week. But it will likely take longer.

I have never tried a bottle in less than 2 weeks. Only half were carbonated by then some took much longer and ALL of them tasted better at 3 weeks or longer.

I again suggest that you make other plans for your party and go at least 14 days fermentation and 14 to 21 days bottle conditioning.

If you do try to make it for the party have other refreshments available. You would not want to have only the beer and then have an off flavored flat beer to serve.

 

Well, as long as its drinkable and somewhat as good as commercial beer like sleeman i'll be happy for that weekend. And by letting an half age longer, i'll be able to taste difference between young/old brewed beer, that's a good "learning experience"

So if I want the bottle phase to go quicker, can i put a little less priming sugar then they suggest in the kit? They instruct to put equivalent of 8g of withe sugar per liter. Is it gonna work if I put lets say 6g?

 

I used to know a guy who would make up 1L batches of cider in 2L PET bottles using bread yeast in about 4 days. It was indeed cider and technically drinkable, but I wouldn't want to.

At 25-26C you're going to have LOTS of off flavors that you'll want the yeast to process back down. Most people here say that 21C is too high.

It certainly will be a learning experience. I think most people severely underestimate the amount of effort and time that goes into commercial beers, even the cheap ones.

Less priming sugar will not speed up the process. It'll just leave your beer flat.

 

I played a bit with the priming calculator that kh54s10 posted a link for earlier, there's is even a specific result for maple syrup and honey

But there's an error in the link, you have to remove <br>... link corrected: http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

It say i'll have to use 0.71 cup of maple syrup for 6 gallon (half of the whole brew) if i'm aiming for a Belgian Blond, ichose that cause its the only blond in the list.

And the other half is probably gonna stay there to ferment longer, as most of you suggest i do
Anyway I wasn't aiming for top quality when I started that project, I was more looking to see if I enjoy the process and if I can get any end result from that "experiment". The first bottled batch is gonna have been brew exactly according to the cooper kit instruction (beside maybe that i switch "brew enhencer 1" for brown sugar) so it will give me a good standard to compare future batch against. Cause there will be future batch, i do enjoy the process so far

 

Dwrahahb

 

BS. I make Cooper's kits all the time. They finish fermentation in 3-4 days and can be drank straight away. If you've got them in a bucket with a spigot then they're already carbonated.

We're not talking about making beer for pretentious judges; it's a party.

 

Now that's what i'm talking about thats the spirit...

You know what is the party theme? My 29y old friend decided it was gonna be "party like it's the last years of the 20s", so the prohibition is on, we have plenty of "cheap homemade illegal beer" and the crash is coming at the end of the month, thats the spirit of the crazy 20s

But don't get me wrong, I do like quality (don't tell anyone but I planned on making a kiln and making my own malt in the future to control quality as much as i can) but i'm keeping the sophisticated stuff for later. For now, let's have a drink to forget humanity have invented the Charleston...

 

Your only real problem is that you made it in a huge ass glass vessel. This would have been far easier to deal with using plastic fermenters with spigots.

Honestly, Cooper's yeasts flocculate so fast and tight that you can just spigot right into your glass before the beer even loses it's fermentation carbonation. For a party, there's no need to do anything else other than get the timing right - you want to hit terminal gravity 1-2 days before the party. Too soon, and you'll lose carb - then you'll need to manually carb and that takes time.

 

Wait, I want to make sure I understand what your saying, sorry i'm new to terms like "flocculate"...

BTW, i got a deal a few weeks ago on demijohn and it was all i got avilable when i started the brew... but if someone near montreal want to trade 1-2 demijohn for smaller bottle, I really need smaller container, like 20l carboy,let me know.

back to business...
Correct me if I'm wrong:
1- what your saying is I should put what is inside the demijohn directly into small bottle, then cap the bottles, without adding any priming sugar?
2- The timing is important, so i should bottle something like 2-3 days before drinking time? And if so, what temp should the bottles be kept under?
3- I just realized writing this that i'm not sure if bubbling/co2 is supposed to stop by itself within the "7 days max" period mentioned in the kit instruction?

 

Flocculation: (wikipedia)
Flocculation refers to the rate at which yeast settles to the bottom of the fermentation vessel. Yeast strains with higher flocculation will settle out of the beer faster once fermentation is complete.

so, if coppers yeast flocculate fast, i may be able to bottle this weekend because all yeast will have settled at the bottom

by the way, my plan is to lift the demijohn high enough to make a syphon effect, and i saw a good idea from a youtube video i watched last week. The guy had a syphon with a piece added under the tube so it was not resting directly on the bottle bottom. It was instead syphoning brew from a few inch over, and apparently it was kepping the yeast residue inside and taking out clear brew. I'm gonna try something like that... or maybe buy something ready made, i'm gooing to homebrew shop tommorow and i need an hydrometer too.

 

Flocculation means the dropping and compacting of yeast out of suspension after it doesn't have any more sugar to eat.

Some yeasts flocculate poorly, so they will stay in suspension for up to a week after they run out of sugar and they won't compact tightly at the bottom of the fermenter which makes racking a PITA. You just need to wait for them to drop and then be extra careful when racking.

Other yeasts flocculate well, in particular Cooper's only takes about 1 day for a complete and tight yeast cake to form at the bottom of the vessel.

Beer will be carbonated during fermentation time because yeast produces C02, in addition to alcohol, as by products of eating sugar. After fermentation stops, i.e. gravity has become stable, the beer will still continue to lose it's C02 out through the airlock. What this means, in practice, is that with poorly flocculating yeasts, the beer has lost all of it's carbonation by the time the yeast flocculates, whereas with well flocculating yeasts, the beer will "clear" while it is still carbonated and that carbonation will last for 2-3 days before it dissipates. Now, if you rack the beer then the carbonation will dissipate anyway. That's what I meant by serving it straight out of the spigot when you ferment in a plastic bucket. That's the way to go for a party.

If you are going to bottle, I'd highly recommend PET but then you will need to add priming sugar. Glass is too much to deal with when you're on a tight schedule and you might create bombs.

 

So you have until next weekend? I would bottle it since you fermented in a glass vessel, but maybe forego the maple syrup this time and just keep it simple since it's meant for a party. A simple, low alcohol beer doesn't need the 4-6 weeks that a lot of people are saying.

If the theme is a prohibition party, I'd say you're spot on. Just don't have high expectations for the product. The advice people are giving is good advice if you plan to continue the hobby, but if you want some simple homemade beer for a party, go for it man. I'm sure prohibition era homebrew was probably a lot worse. We're just snobs here

 

Yeah. If I had known it was prohibition themed, I'd have given you the bread yeast cider recipe. You could knock out 4 bottles of that in about 15 minutes.

 

It really doesn't take any longer than that to put together a 5 gal batch of apfelwein in accordance with Edwort's award winning recipe.

 

I am not sure the OP used a Coopers fermenter. If he used a bucket or carboy and is going to bottle there is no possible way to ferment and carbonate in 3-4 days.

I don't know about those fermenters but I will disagree that you can get anything decent in 3-4 days. Most of mine aren't finished fermenting in 3-4 days.

If you wish to drink 3-4 day canned beer kits go for it. I will continue to brew very good beer and let it have the time it needs to finish properly.

 

I want to bottle 2-3 cases of 24 bottles for next friday night, maybe saturday if its really not ready in 5 days. This would be about half of the 46L that site in the demijohn right now. Beleive me, i will probably do it that fast only this time cause I'm in a hurry to get something ready. In the future i'll take time to do things properly.

I didn't opened or tasted anything yet since last tuesday when i mixed everything. The airlock bubble speed has slowed down a lot. Just by looking at the beer it seems to be somewhat carbonated right now. Just for curiosity, what if I took some of that brew right now out of the demijohn and bottle it without adding priming sugar, would that give a something we can call beer? Or flat beer? Or low carbonated beer...

I went to buy an hydrometer today so I can now check FG but i had no time to measure it yet, gonna do it tomorrow morning. But since i'm planning on bottling tomorow, can I skip the "wait for 3 consecutives days with stable SG"? I mean if I measure FG tomorrow and it give me 1.006 (as it is stated in the kit's instructions, FG should be 1.006) can I then assume fermentation is over, prime with 8g per liter, and bottle?

And if everything is bottled tomorrow, it give exactly 5 days for carbonation. Will it be enough?

*edit: I may try to find a keg/co2 kit tomorrow. Anyone know where i can buy/rent that in montreal?

 

Don't rush the bottling. Get a hydrometer and see what your gravity is.
Also taste the beer, if it doesn't taste right, let it age a while in bulk and try it again in a week or two. Chill the carboy down by putting in a box with 2 liter frozen water bottles and the yeast will drop out.

 

I didn't had time to bottle today, but i'm still going to take an SG reading tonight, the first one in fact. So if tomorrow I take another reading, and let's say it's stable and both reading are around 1.006, what is stated as supposed FG in the Coopers kit instructions, can I then bottle without any risk of bottle explosion? Maybe i'm just a little insecure since its my first brew and I really want to make it correctly... and I'm in "a hurry" to get at least a few cases of drinkable beer for next weekends... just a confirmation that everything is ok would be great

So here is how I plan to proceed:

Sunday night:
1- Take a sample from the demijohn by removing the airlock/cap, by using some 1/2 inch vynil tubing from hardware store that was first clean with bleach/water, rince in water, and then dip the tubing, pinch/lock the upper end so i can take some liquid out.
Put back the cap/airlock right after.

2- Test SG for 1st time.

3- Build/test a syphon using this as a guide: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/flyguys-t-siphon-3-replacement-autosiphon-25774/

MONDAY:
4- Take 2cnd sample.Make sure both are around 1.006

5- Put clean bottle with peices of aluminum foil over openings in the oven at 350 for 1h to sanitize, maybe even sterilize? Anyway i've read its enough for beer.

6- Transfer about 20-25L of liquid from 1st demijohn to a 2nd demijohn using the syphon.

7- Add priming sugar to 2nd demijohn and mix without getting any air or bubble in the brew.

8- Clean/sanitize cap for bottle and fill each bottle, and cap.

9- Let the bottles sit between 20-25c for... here i'll say 4 days, this is assuming i'll drink it on next friday.. (See previous reply to see why I need it friday...)

TUESDAY:
10- I may find some time during the day to search for a kegging kit to buy or rent to use for the rest of the brew. Would it be possible to have a keg ready by friday too?

 

Does this "procedure" make any sense???

 

Good news, I just got myself a 50L empty keg, so I thinks theres will be no bottling this time. I still need to find a CO2 tank and the coupler/faucet system.

I'll get the keg tomorrow, so new plan is to fill the keg tomorrow (tuesday) evening, so primary fermentation will have gone for 1 full week. So new plan, new questions:

1- Is it necessary to plug CO2 into the keg right after it has been filled or can I wait until next day? (because I may not be able to get the tank before wednesday)

2-Let's says CO2 is injected on wednesday, would it be ready to drink by friday night?

3- Do I still add priming sugar?

 

Got my keg !!!



It is a standard north-american ball lock, i still need to figure how to open it so i can fill using a syphon i'm going to build with that:

I'll follow the plan i posted a link to earlier.

Tomorrow morning i'll get a co2 tank with coupler and faucet, so i think i'll be ready to drink that on friday night.

From what i understand, there is no need for priming sugar to be add in a co2 pressurized keg, is that correct?
But can i still add some just for the taste?

 

Well that is not a standard North American Ball lock keg. It is a Sanke keg (I think). It is for commercial use and rarely used here for homebrewing applications.

You will need a co2 tank and regulator. If you can get all these things and get the beer inside you can burst carbonate by adding about 30PSI for 24-48 hours then reducing the pressure to serving levels.

I am not sure what you need to do to fill one of those but from what I know it is not easy or requires special equipment.

I still suggest that you make other plans for your party. Let this one ferment for another couple of days then bottle and condition for 3 weeks at about 70F.

 

:smack: I REALLY wish I had thought to do that with the batch I have fermenting right now! My hydrometer rolled off a table during the boil of the current batch and broke. So I did not get an OG reading before I had it tucked away in the fermenter. I found that I had another hydrometer the next day!

 

Sounds like a fun theme for a party. Please let us know how it turns out. Sounds like you're right on track for prohibition style beer!

 

I hope you posted in The Official Broken Hydrometer Count Thread

 

By looking at it, the lock on my keg is pretty much like this one in the video:


I just got home from buying co2 and all. I'll test the coupler in a minute to make sure it fit. Both guys i talked to, the store owner and the guy who sold me the keg (he work at a local microbrewery), they both knew exactly what I was going to do (ie. filling a keg with homebrew beer) and they both told me it would fit and talk about the keg/coupler as it was "american standard ball lock". Maybe I didnt get the exact term...

I'll try the 30psi trick, i guess i just have to make sure everything (tube?) is resistant to more then that. And for serving I heard 10psi, is that correct? And how much time before serving should I depressurized the keg?

**edit -- @kh54s10: I'm taking notes on all your advices, and be sure i'll try to follow them on my next batch. Usually I prefer quality over quantity/rapidity, but this time circumstances are forcing me to do it this way.