57 gallon electric HLT build

BrewBeemer · Jul 31, 2009

CodeRage said:
Yeah, the NEC is a good thing. Im not going to crap on it. However, if a hardcore UL guy comes in here we're all screwed.

CodeRage; being legally retired receiving my 30 year pin last December, was never "we're all screwed" or had an inspection turned down on my jobs or my crew members working under me. We worked hard with rewards with weekly safety meeting an hour early. Materials and safety 5 minutes then then bier time. I made a few not so friendly brothers in the trade canning them for their bad workmanship plus been attacked by a bender once. Retired now with a 100% inspection win score as code was one of our strong points in my local and I would not compromise or cut corners even when a general contractor treatened me, bring it on with the BA and the local unions attorney on my side.
I must ask one question; if SSR or SSRD's are not 100% fail safe as a magnetic contactor I must ask are these homebrewers operating off a open control panel with their fingers on the SSR or SSRD's output leads with the elements off waiting for a false or stray magnetic field signal trip to happen? I find this not going to happen with cross emf signaling when the control panel is properly layed out with low voltage SSR or SSRD signal wires isolated with a divider seperating completly the low and high voltages away from each other (by code) be it a 120 volt pump or 240 volt element wiring they are seperated and not a rats nest. As far as heat from a SSR or a SSRD this is why one would use the proper size heat sinks this is also where you do not cut corners. Like pushing a 25 amp SSR/SSRD at 24 amps when instead of using a 40 amp unit that will be way more happy and switching a lot cooler besides a lot longer service life. I have pushed 40 amp SSRD's over 52 amps on heating elements with a oversize finned heat sink and heat paste with a computer fan force cooling it lasted 3 years and many brews. I knew a failure would happen but was surprised how long it took. Bottom line build with a reserve for any needed future loading on any system. Still fun to disagree, it's a different world in an office vs what's in the field installed and operating.
We try to avoid those Magical Electrical Phenomenons in the field.

CodeRage · Jul 31, 2009

Brewpastor said:
Jeez, as I read this a realize I have too many options... Ain't I lucky?!

You're something all right.... :tank:

CodeRage · Aug 4, 2009

Brew Pastor, as promised.
I would suggest using 10 gauge wire for everything involving the elements, everything else on the fuses can be 12 or 14 gauge. I a, attaching the cad drawing and a word plot. If you can print to 11x17 I would do it.

Crap, premature post. I cant attach them because they are too big....

tried saving them a bmps but no dice. Going to need your email address or see if we can get the zip extension expanded to 200k

CodeRage · Aug 4, 2009

Here we go....
Office XPS
or
AutoCAD

Bokonon · Nov 13, 2009

Bumping this old thread. wormfishin was looking for the "Electric Heat.xls" spreadsheet to do calculations and it looks like the location had changed. So here is a link to the site that has it:

http://suburb.semo.net/jet1024/beer/software/beer-software.html
and a link direct to the spreadsheet:
http://suburb.semo.net/jet1024/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.zls

lamarguy · Dec 29, 2009

Bumping again because the link to this [very useful] spreadsheet is incorrect.

Electric Heat/Wattage Calculation

BrewBeemer · Dec 29, 2009

The Pol said:
5500W at 220VAC will draw 25A... two of them will use 50A, requiring at least a 60A breaker. That is a lot of power... a heluva lot of power.

Even if you would find more wattage, your useful amperage in your residence may be lacking FWIW.

Looks like you would def. need (2) 5500W elements to heat in a reasonable amount of time, also consider the size (surface area) of the vessel. There will be copious amounts of heat loss unless you insulate well.

A lot of power, by whose standards? I was certified to splice 12,000 volts with many times with adding 150 amp loads on line, this might be a couple of watts or BTU's of energy here like 6 million plus watts with everything going right. Not right the big flash bang and a ouch up stream at the power supply. I find 11KW's childs play at 240 volts. I must be lucky with SOOW cords in 4/4 and 2/4 as well electrical materials given to me free by contractor. No pissing around waiting for hours with slow brew heating at low wattages and 120 volts.

stevehaun · Dec 30, 2009

Brewbeemer:
How big are your batches and how many watts do you have in your HLT and BK? I make 30 gallon (occasionally 35 gallon) batches. Both my HLT and BK have two 4500 watt elements or 9000 watts per vessel. It takes me about 2 hours to heat 50 gallons of water from 55F to 175F. That is a bit of a PITA but it does take a while to weigh and mill 60 to 100 pounds of grain. It does not seem to take long to get wort from mash temp to boil because I turn the elements on as soon as they are covered with wort. By the time my sparge is complete, I am nearly boiling. I boil with my PID set at 85% power. 30 gallon batches seem comfortable with my system but when I brew 35 gallon batches, it seems like I have exceeded the limits of my system. 11,000 watts in both my HLT and BK would be nice but the bigger breaker and power cord it would require doesn't seem worth it to me. I think I will simply stick to 30 gallon batches.

John Beere · Dec 30, 2009

BP,

did you ever get around to doing this? If so, how many heating elements did you use? Is is sufficient? etc, etc..

I should be breaking ground on the new brewery in the next two weeks and am trying to figure out if I want to fire the HLT with natural gas or do it electric. The brewery will have its own 200-amp breaker, so I'd have plenty of power..

BrewBeemer · Dec 31, 2009

stevehaun said:
Brewbeemer:
How big are your batches and how many watts do you have in your HLT and BK? I make 30 gallon (occasionally 35 gallon) batches. Both my HLT and BK have two 4500 watt elements or 9000 watts per vessel. It takes me about 2 hours to heat 50 gallons of water from 55F to 175F. That is a bit of a PITA but it does take a while to weigh and mill 60 to 100 pounds of grain. It does not seem to take long to get wort from mash temp to boil because I turn the elements on as soon as they are covered with wort. By the time my sparge is complete, I am nearly boiling. I boil with my PID set at 85% power. 30 gallon batches seem comfortable with my system but when I brew 35 gallon batches, it seems like I have exceeded the limits of my system. 11,000 watts in both my HLT and BK would be nice but the bigger breaker and power cord it would require doesn't seem worth it to me. I think I will simply stick to 30 gallon batches. Bottom line I wanted to net 15 gallons of a big stout in my cornys not wanting a brewing system with undersized limits for my needs or wants.

After making a test brewing system of the size I wanted with great results before building the future one out of stainless. I had 25 gallon HLT, MLT and Boil kettle in mind with 11KW heating each, switch to 5.5KW to maintain temps with a BCS 460 controller. I hate waiting to heat plus have plenty of SOOW cords, caps and plugs all free from my company I worked for.
I saved hundreds of feet of 2/4, 4/4, 6/4, 8/4 and 10/4 SOOW heading for the scrap yard. Time was money on the state job with over 42K feet of cords just ripped out and thrown away after a couple years use as temp power. Only dusty but still like new used in massive tunnel air ducts. The shop owner told me to load up his 5 ton flat bed and take what I needed home on company time. The job site was 3 miles from home. Being a pack rat has its rewards.

stevehaun · Dec 31, 2009

Brewbeemer: I think 11,000 watts that will work great for you. My system started out as a 15 gallon system. My BK was a 25 gallon megapot. 9000 watts was more than enough for great mash temp control via the HERMS and more than enough power for the boil. I ran the PID at 65% once I reached the boil. It was all good until I found the 55 gallon SS drum...

BrewBeemer · Dec 31, 2009

stevehaun said:
Brewbeemer: I think 11,000 watts that will work great for you. My system started out as a 15 gallon system. My BK was a 25 gallon megapot. 9000 watts was more than enough for great mash temp control via the HERMS and more than enough power for the boil. I ran the PID at 65% once I reached the boil. It was all good until I found the 55 gallon SS drum...

Oops, going bigger again your heading to 55 gallons, time to increase the wattage for heating again.
My next build of 25 gallons again but in stainless is still on hold due to reasons I can not control (back surgeries) but i'm happy with the past results off the quick and dirty 25 gallon POS system I cobbled together as a test model now knowing it will work later in stainless. My maximum of three corny's filled after the ferment is as large as I will ever need for my personal use or with help of few friends drinking plus the ability for smaller batches also. Money, wifey and storage area are another factor should I go larger again. With well water I heated the HLT w/11KW until near set temp, switched to the MLT at 11KW until near strike temp then split 5.5KW to the HLT and MLT to bring up the last couple of degrees. This way i'm only at 11KW at any given time not counting the pump, controller and any panel control lights. Same with the Boil, start with 11KW, near the boil temp zone switch over to one 5.5KW element and control the boil rate. One time in the cold without any insulation on the Boil keggle I had to run one 5.5KW on full time with the boil controlled by the second element. Next time the BCS 460 will control both boil elements at the same time on the future build that's on hold for now. With the large free SOOW cords and materials it's a "why not" thing besides I hate slow heating times.

BrewBeemer · Dec 31, 2009

John Beere said:
BP,

did you ever get around to doing this? If so, how many heating elements did you use? Is is sufficient? etc, etc..

I should be breaking ground on the new brewery in the next two weeks and am trying to figure out if I want to fire the HLT with natural gas or do it electric. The brewery will have its own 200-amp breaker, so I'd have plenty of power..

Wow, ya got 200 amps to play with, congrats. I once removed the meter and jumpered the buss with my service change clips (years ago as a wireman) and fed my Tig welder. With a total of the house load plus the welder at 131 amps alone the service drop was smoldering all the way to the pig on the pole across the street. Yup service change was needed from 100 to 200 amp plus the larger service drop for me.
John, depending on how many gallons your next brewery system will be I would jump instantly to electric heating you have the HP or wattage to do it. NG or Propane (Pro-Pain in the AZZ) are not a consideration at $2.79 a gallon or $22.95 for 3 1/2 gallons for a Blue Rino pro-pain bottle exchange. At $6.56 a gallon no thanks, used just for the BBQ only as I refill the old style 5 gallon bottles off my friends 250 gallon tank at his ranch. I have a gas line in the patio, again capped off rather have electric. JMO.

57 gallon electric HLT build

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