All Grain vs. Extract Brewing?
- Thread starter Boyd
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
PintOfBitter
Well-Known Member
This topic has been discussed hundreds of times (try searching and you'll see what I mean) but in a nutshell, AG gives you much more flexibility at the cost of larger equipment investment and longer brew days.
Germelli1
Well-Known Member
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/how-much-better-all-grain-vs-extract-brewing-147032/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/noob-extract-vs-partial-vs-all-grain-163249/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/extract-taste-vs-all-grain-171682/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/all-grain-brewing-vs-extract-brewing-35136/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/full-boil-extract-vs-all-grain-171160/
Those are some relevant hits off of the first page of a search. You can also scroll down to the bottom of this thread and see five related threads. Do some reading on the processes, techniques, end products, etc and come back with any specific questions you still have.
Good luck!
permo
Well-Known Member
Moved to all grain after about 4 extract batches, IMO, extract brewing isn't really all that much brewing to me, it is more like boiling and fermenting.
Regardless, you have such improved options and control with all grain...for example you can use vienna and munich...which are useless in a steep. You can manipulate mash thickness and temperature..etc.etc..etc...
Regardless, you have such improved options and control with all grain...for example you can use vienna and munich...which are useless in a steep. You can manipulate mash thickness and temperature..etc.etc..etc...
The advantage of moving to all-grain is that you will now be one of the "cool" brewers. The disadvantage is that the need to be cool will soon filter over to other areas of your life and you'll be spending most of your time buying lift kits for your trucks, larger caliber firearms and searching for that trophy wife so you can brag to your friends. All of that is going to leave you LESS time for brewing! 
PintOfBitter
Well-Known Member
The advantage of moving to all-grain is that you will now be one of the "cool" brewers. The disadvantage is that the need to be cool will soon filter over to other areas of your life and you'll be spending most of your time buying lift kits for your trucks, larger caliber firearms and searching for that trophy wife so you can brag to your friends. All of that is going to leave you LESS time for brewing!
He's right. I just got some new racing stickers and an exhaust resonator for my Neon. Where will it end?!
seriously though, there are some very real advantages to both. I haven't touched extract since going AG just because it's expensive, but I really miss the quick brew day. You'll find that when you start grain brewing, you start wanting to invest in a lot of equipment to help simplify and shorten your brew days.
Pivovar_Koucky
Well-Known Member
Also, I'm pretty sure that my all grain beers ferment out much dryer than extract beers. Some people don't care about that, but I like my beer dry.
I'm curious if you did full boils. Have you tried doing late additions on extract brews?
I've found if I only boil 20% with the hops and put the rest in at flame out that my color stays in range and the beer will attenuate properly.
I don't do alot of extract but I tried that at some point and found it really helped the beer.
andyherrick
Well-Known Member
I moved to all grain after two batches of extract and two batches of partial mash. In my opinion, partial mash brewing produced good beer. When I went to all grain, it was a little more work and time, but it made me feel proud. I am two all grain batches in and I puff out my chest and think to myself that I am making beer just like a brewery would, only smaller batches.
Pivovar_Koucky
Well-Known Member
Yes, I tried that. It was certainly better, but I still think that something about the extracts makes them less fermentable. Whether it has to do with the dehydration or if they mash at a higher temperature I don't know. One thing I do know is the beers I have made with extract were much sweeter than the all-grain beers. I haven't done any side-by-side comparisons, making extract and AG versions of the same recipe though. So it may just be a coincidence.
SumnerH
Well-Known Member
If you're already doing full boils, a grain bag is all you need to do all grain.
If not, you may need a propane burner or heatstick (depending on your stove's capacity), a larger pot, and a wort chiller.
This can become a very long answer and depends on how much equipment you have aquired doing extract only. I will try to take a realistic approach:
Lets assume you are an extract brewer doing 5 gallon partial boil batches. That would mean you have at least a 3-6 gallon brewpot, a fermentor, thermometers, some hoses and a siphon, a hydrometer, 50 or so glass bottles, and a capper and probably an additional bucket for bottling.
A realistic leap to all grain from this step would require:
A larger brew kettle - I'd recommend no less than 10 gallons
A propane burner
A MLT with a valve and false bottom (can DIY with a cooler + steel braid)
Some additional hoses
Wort chiller
That is about it actually, by batch sparging you'll be able to get by with little more than what is listed above. NOTE: There are all grain techniques which wouldn't require the MLT (brew in a bag), and you could go no chill and not need the chiller, but this is just a typical approach.
Doesn't look like too much huh? You could probably grab all that stuff up for under $200 dollars if you looked hard enough. But be warned, as soon as you start doing all grain batches you are going to want to to buy more equipment. You'll want to go to kegging your beer, then you'll want to control your temperature with a fermentation chamber, then fly sparge with a HLT and sparge arm. Next you'll want to do a herms system and want to upgrade to 10 gallon batches and buy in bulk.
Before you know it you've spent 2k on a freezer, a keezer, a grain mill, corny kegs, carboys, keggles, heat exhangers, pumps, stainless steel fittings and so on and so on.
My advice is do not get into it unless you are prepared to spend some money.
PintOfBitter
Well-Known Member
The necessities are: Boil kettle large enough for full volume boils, mash tun with false bottom and valve, precision thermometer.
EDIT: umm... i guess i missed the other responses. Came late to the game
I gave a couple seminars at NHC this year about moving from extract to AG brewing. The info is at http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/4803/Moving_to_Mashing-Denny_Conn.pdf .
SumnerH
Well-Known Member
How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4650&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0/fa/
bradneal
Well-Known Member
After doing about a dozen extract kits, I just ordered my first PM from Northern Brewer. It's a Carmelite Triple-Grain Tripel Partial Mash. I am pretty anxious to take things to the next level, but can't really see myself going all the way to AG as I don't have the room or the budget for all the goodies one needs to go that route.
But I learned a long time ago to never say never, so who knows...
But I learned a long time ago to never say never, so who knows...
NasteeBrew
Member
Hello everyone who is interested. I am new here, but the subject was interesting so I decided to experiment.
I have brewed two small batches of English Pale Ale, one AG and one DME assuming the same efficiencies. The recipe I made it up to be simple and easy to make. For the AG I have used British Two Row as base then British Crystal at 50-60L, a little CaraVienne, and Flaked Wheat for head retention. For the DME I used Munttons extra light DME as base and British Crystal and CaraVienne.
Mash: The AG was mashed using simple infussion for an hour, mashed out and boiled. The DME was done in a regular manner plus steeped adjuncts as mentioned above.
The recipe was written assuming the same effeciency for both formulations. After the boil and chilling I have measured the original gravities. There, I have seen the first differance between the batches. My AG batch had an OG of 1.054 and the DME batch 1.051, even though on paper the gravities should have been exactly the same. So my mash extracted more sugars then the DME had in it.
Fermentation: I have used S-04 birtish ale yeast. This was the fastest fermentation I have ever seen.
In 3 days the DME batch was complitely fermented. The final gravity was 1.012, which gave an ABV of 5.1%.
In AG version of the beer fermentation held 2 more days. The final gravity reading was 1.01. This gave me an ABV of 5.6% or so.
This is very interesting because the yeast could eat more sugars extracted by AG brew then in the DME, a differance of 8%. The AG batch is more nutricious to the yeast.
While all that is interesting it is not as important as how does it taste, and smell. So here is what I have done. I had a few friends over for dinner. So without telling anything about the process by which the beers were made I asked them to taste them and tell me what they think.
Head: The head in the AG was much fluffier and long lasting even leaving nice lace on the glass. The DME had a nice head two but the bubbles were a little bigger and did not last as long.
Color: The colors were very close, the DME was just a tad darker but I mean a little bit. The differance was in clarity. The AG was much clearer. (note I did not use Irish Moss for the DME batch because I forgot so this may be the cause)
Nose: The AG smelled maltier while the DME smelled more yeast like with a malt finish. This is where people can choose what they like better.
AG - malt, grape, toffee, hop DME - grape, little malt and other fruit, hop
Taste: The AG was rich and malty with a nice hop bitterness and dry finish. Very ballanced.
The DME batch was not as malty and the bitterness was similar to the AG, no dry finish and a little butter-scotch. All in all the AG brought forth the taste of the malt much better.
Which one did they choose to drink? All people asked liked the AG better without question they would drink the AG if they had a choice.
Conclusion: Making AG beer is more time consuming, but you can get a richer flavor, clarity and smell from it. If you have the time, try it. You may be surprised at what you can accomplish, but it requires precission and attention. If you are not precission oriented nor do you have the time to be so then stay with extracts, the beer made with them can be very good and better then most of what you can find at the store.
Happy Brewing everyone and I hope this helps.
I have brewed two small batches of English Pale Ale, one AG and one DME assuming the same efficiencies. The recipe I made it up to be simple and easy to make. For the AG I have used British Two Row as base then British Crystal at 50-60L, a little CaraVienne, and Flaked Wheat for head retention. For the DME I used Munttons extra light DME as base and British Crystal and CaraVienne.
Mash: The AG was mashed using simple infussion for an hour, mashed out and boiled. The DME was done in a regular manner plus steeped adjuncts as mentioned above.
The recipe was written assuming the same effeciency for both formulations. After the boil and chilling I have measured the original gravities. There, I have seen the first differance between the batches. My AG batch had an OG of 1.054 and the DME batch 1.051, even though on paper the gravities should have been exactly the same. So my mash extracted more sugars then the DME had in it.
Fermentation: I have used S-04 birtish ale yeast. This was the fastest fermentation I have ever seen.
In 3 days the DME batch was complitely fermented. The final gravity was 1.012, which gave an ABV of 5.1%.
In AG version of the beer fermentation held 2 more days. The final gravity reading was 1.01. This gave me an ABV of 5.6% or so.
This is very interesting because the yeast could eat more sugars extracted by AG brew then in the DME, a differance of 8%. The AG batch is more nutricious to the yeast.
While all that is interesting it is not as important as how does it taste, and smell. So here is what I have done. I had a few friends over for dinner. So without telling anything about the process by which the beers were made I asked them to taste them and tell me what they think.
Head: The head in the AG was much fluffier and long lasting even leaving nice lace on the glass. The DME had a nice head two but the bubbles were a little bigger and did not last as long.
Color: The colors were very close, the DME was just a tad darker but I mean a little bit. The differance was in clarity. The AG was much clearer. (note I did not use Irish Moss for the DME batch because I forgot so this may be the cause)
Nose: The AG smelled maltier while the DME smelled more yeast like with a malt finish. This is where people can choose what they like better.
AG - malt, grape, toffee, hop DME - grape, little malt and other fruit, hop
Taste: The AG was rich and malty with a nice hop bitterness and dry finish. Very ballanced.
The DME batch was not as malty and the bitterness was similar to the AG, no dry finish and a little butter-scotch. All in all the AG brought forth the taste of the malt much better.
Which one did they choose to drink? All people asked liked the AG better without question they would drink the AG if they had a choice.
Conclusion: Making AG beer is more time consuming, but you can get a richer flavor, clarity and smell from it. If you have the time, try it. You may be surprised at what you can accomplish, but it requires precission and attention. If you are not precission oriented nor do you have the time to be so then stay with extracts, the beer made with them can be very good and better then most of what you can find at the store.
Happy Brewing everyone and I hope this helps.
I think you're possibly jumping to an incorrect conclusion. Extract is generally less fermentable than AG. It can be because of other grains in the extract or the way the manufacturer produced the extract. While it's completely possible that there were more nutrients in the AG batch, there's no way you can say conclusively that it's the reason the AG batch finished lower.
NasteeBrew
Member
I don't mean to be rude but you actually agree with me. The conclusion is correct as you say it is "Extract is generally less fermentable than AG". As to why that might be, like you said about manufaturing, there can be many reasons but that is not the point of my little exoeriment. The point is that AG is more fermentable than extract.
Denny's correction of your statement was because you used the term more "nutritious" rather than more fermentable. Yes AG is typically more fermentable. My guess with my limited knowledge is some caramelization with extract leads to a bit more unfermentable sugars. The taste between my extract and AG brews seems to agree with that as my extracts have always been a pinch sweeter.
That said, I find my AG brews finish fermenting significantly faster than any of my prior extract brews. And yeah, I agree with ya... AG just can't be beat in my eyes. That's my personal opinion so please people don't jump on me I know award winning beers have been done with extract!
That said, I find my AG brews finish fermenting significantly faster than any of my prior extract brews. And yeah, I agree with ya... AG just can't be beat in my eyes. That's my personal opinion so please people don't jump on me I know award winning beers have been done with extract!
NasteeBrew
Member
Maybe that is my mistake about nutritious, I am no biochemist. Oh and I am nowhere near as good a brewer as the people who can make beers out of extract that can win competitions. Now imagine what those brewers could do with AG.
Yeap, Mr. Stikks I agree with you.
Yeap, Mr. Stikks I agree with you.
I recently brewed several extract batches with NB's new rye extract in order to come up with an extract version of my Rye IPA recipe. Once I got the recipe dialed in, the extract version was remarkably similar to the AG version.
Similar threads
