Ohio University Homebrew Festival Shut Down

Myself and bubbachunk started OU's first and only homebrewing club on campus. We spent over four months preparing for this event to be held on campus (which is a big deal around here with our party reputation as a school and all). We brewed up over 70 gallons as a club to prepare and then BAM!

Here check it out:

http://athensnews.com/news/local-ne...-bust-campus-homebrew-fest-confiscate-13-kegs

This was just supposed to be an easy going, fun natured event and the state of Ohio decides to treat us like meth dealers. They even shut down a brew demo on site saying it was illegal.

That sucks - there are so many better ways it could have been handled. And, they better keep those kegs chilled and return them full!!

That really sucks.

What are cornhole games?

What a ****** move on their part. Sorry to hear things went so poorly.

That really sucks but after reading the story I have to say what you were doing was illegal. Selling the homebrew for $1 was the key in getting the attention of the OIU. Had it been free I'm not sure there would have been a problem. The permit you guys had covered the sale of alcohol that was legal to sell. The kegs that they took was all the homebrew. They didn't take the keg of PBR because your permit covered that.

It sucks a lot but and I feel for you with all the time and effort put into it, but I think the police didn't overstep their bounds. The only thing that seemed fishy was shutting down the brewing demonstration. I'm sure the laws vary from place to place but I know plenty of places where it is legal.

Next year just charge an admission fee and have a mix of homebrew and commercial beer so you can attest that the commercial beer was covered by the admission fee and the homebrew was free. (Not to be taken as legal advise since I'm almost as clueless as the next guy on alcohol laws )

You have to act first. File a suit as a student union. Contact a lawyer in a city not around the university. Looks like you guys have a great case. Few questions arise, like, did they have warrents, who issued the orders, etc etc. If they had a valid reason, perhaps it was a finable offence only, and the confication was not warrented. Lotsa questions to be asked. I think you all have a valid counter case.

I only work with lawyers, would be nice if one here could wiegh in on this.


http://www.com.ohio.gov/liqr/PermitClasses.aspx

cellardoor said:

That really sucks but after reading the story I have to say what you were doing was illegal. Selling the homebrew for $1 was the key in getting the attention of the OIU. Had it been free I'm not sure there would have been a problem. The permit you guys had covered the sale of alcohol that was legal to sell. The kegs that they took was all the homebrew. They didn't take the keg of PBR because your permit covered that.

It sucks a lot but and I feel for you with all the time and effort put into it, but I think the police didn't overstep their bounds. The only thing that seemed fishy was shutting down the brewing demonstration. I'm sure the laws vary from place to place but I know plenty of places where it is legal.

Next year just charge an admission fee and have a mix of homebrew and commercial beer so you can attest that the commercial beer was covered by the admission fee and the homebrew was free. (Not to be taken as legal advise since I'm almost as clueless as the next guy on alcohol laws )

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This sounds right to me. If there's any one topic we've beaten to death over the years, it's the legality of selling homebrew (er.. illegality). Might be a technicality, but given that this is an area that's so tightly regulated, seems to me that as the organizers, you HAVE TO confirm absolutely what could and could not be done (can't make assumptions on this stuff).

Dumping the wort, though? That's cops that are pissed off about having to deal with this, overstepping their bounds. You're a lot more likely (in my non-legal opinion) to have a ***** about that than about having the kegs confiscated.

In Oregon, you can't sell or give away homebrew, except in very small samples. We were giving out homebrew at the last fest. We thought we were complying with all the regs, but someone decided that people could only have one sample of homebrew for the whole fest. Now how the heck does one enforce that??

I hate to say it, but the minute you sell homebrew, you give homebrewing a bad name. That's the biggest part of what made homebrewing legal in the us, that we can't sell it, even in a not for profit situation.

I know you didn't do it on purpose, but still you should know from here that selling is a no-no.....Primarily because it's untaxed.

It says it right here in the article.

The undercover officers told student organizers that the permit they obtained to hold the event did not cover the distribution of unregulated homebrew, said Bret Baker, a chemical engineering senior and president of OU's Brew Crew that organized the event along with the American Institute of Chemical Engineers.

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You're just lucky you guys didn't get busted.

The sad part is, that if you had come to us frst, we may have given you a heads up....there's very little lee-way with the gubment, where the words, "money" and "Homebrew" are concerned.

I was assuming that the "sale" of $1 per beer the cops where refering to as the reason for the bust was not a sale but a "donation". If it was a $1 donation then this changes everything I believe. Am I right to assume this?

FireNightFly said:

I was assuming that the "sale" of $1 per beer the cops where refering to as the reason for the bust was not a sale but a "donation". If it was a $1 donation then this changes everything I believe. Am I right to assume this?

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I don't think so. You can call it a donation- but if someone gives you $1 for a cup of beer, it's a sale. A donation is just that- giving money for nothing in return. A sale is when you pay or barter a valued amount for goods or services. In some states, though, it's not legal to transport homebrew or even to give it away. I know that some states allow you to gift a 6-pack per year. I have no idea about Ohio law in gifting homebrew, but if money changes hands for a "sample", it's a sale.

sorry that happened- that sucks. Having a responsible homebrew event is a great idea, and helps to give a more positive image to homebrewers. Some people still think of homebrewers as party animals trying to make cheap hooch, and I think having an event showing that it's a craft, and a fun hobby, is a great idea. I wish it would have turned out better for you.

I hate to post twice in a row, but damn, Ohio law is so screwed. Looks like to brew for public consumption you must pay 3900/year for a permit. Just to brew for sale in bottle or canister.

I suppose if your non profit group where to apply for one, get a place to do it, have a membership and get volunteers you could not only have those campus gatherings, but you could earn income for your group through sales of your brews to local pubs, retails stores, and public gatherings. Sounds like a great way to earn money for your cause and educate people on how to homebrew without getting sucked down by the man.

A) The police were completely within their bounds as far as I can tell.

B) There was definitely a different way you could have gone about it to be within the limits of the law.

C) This is a perfect example of how law enforcement is completely screwed. All enforcement is based completely on punishment of offenses instead of prevention of offenses. All they had to do was give somebody a call...anybody...and say that what you were doing wasn't legal. They obviously knew it was going on because they had undercover agents there. But instead of spending their night doing something productive they do what's going to get them the most recognition within their organization.

You guys should of sold the empty cups for a buck and filled them for free ....naa that is a bad situation no matter how you look at it...I will have to tell my cousin who goes to school there to check out the brew club!

I agree with most people and what you did, while a good intention, was illegal. Now the police could have easily just told you ahead of time instead of giving you guys enough rope to hang yourselves and that is pretty screwed up.

YooperBrew said:

I don't think so. You can call it a donation- but if someone gives you $1 for a cup of beer, it's a sale. A donation is just that- giving money for nothing in return. A sale is when you pay or barter a valued amount for goods or services. In some states, though, it's not legal to transport homebrew or even to give it away. I know that some states allow you to gift a 6-pack per year. I have no idea about Ohio law in gifting homebrew, but if money changes hands for a "sample", it's a sale.

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I think you could probably flip that and simply give the beers away with a suggested donation. IOW, give someone their sample first for free and have a donation box at the end of the counter or something (hell just make it a huge tip jar). Obviously there is a risk here that you would give all the beer away and not raise any money.

Whether or not the cops were in the right or not, you have my sincere condolences. We all know how much time, effort, and love goes into a batch of beer. To lose all of this is very frustrating.

shek said:

I think you could probably flip that and simply give the beers away with a suggested donation. IOW, give someone their sample first for free and have a donation box at the end of the counter or something (hell just make it a huge tip jar). Obviously there is a risk here that you would give all the beer away and not raise any money.

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Has anyone EVER been able to get away with this kind of loophole? You're not going to win a war of semantics.

Donations will not work. ACBs are very agressive about this. They will send someone in repeatedly getting free beer after free beer until someone mentions a donation. Boom. Then it's a sale.

You have to be a non-proft and that means several things.
You have to collect dues IN ADVANCE OF THE EVENT.
Dues pay for an ANNUAL membership.
You have to meetings and take minutes.
You have to have officers.
You have to have a mission statement.
You have to have membership requirements.

You can't let any non-members into the event.

the_bird said:

Has anyone EVER been able to get away with this kind of loophole? You're not going to win a war of semantics.

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+1,000,000,000

Whenever a thread like this, or someone trying to make money off homebrew for whatever reason, charity or otherwise, all these "armchair lawyers," come up with all the ways they think could be "get arounds" the law. Sorry kids, you can hypothesize all you want, but do you notice ever any actually attorneys with knowledge of the law ever coming up with some of this stuff? No.

Whether we agree with the laws or not. You can't loophole your way through this. The laws are pretty specific in regards to homebrewing- any medium of exchange, be it money or barter involving homebrew is illegal.

Remember homebrewing wasn't re-legalized after the Volstead act was repealed in 1933, it wasn't legalized until 1978, and it took a lot of work in those 45 years to get it to happen....and despite it's federal legalization, it is STILL on a State by State basis.

Wasn't it legalized in Utah JUST this very year?

Do a little reading on the history of prohibition and the legalizing of homebrewing, and maybe you'll quit the idiotic hypothisizing about trying to get around the law, and realize what a fine razors edge this hobby sits on to many folks.

Some folks still think you can go blind drinking homebrew.
Other's can't distinguish what we're doing with making meth.

Hell even some cops look on what we're doing with suspicion.

Don't believe me? Check out this Cops episode if you haven't already....look at what "John Law" has to say about our little hobby. "The concotion he was making could be deadly..."



Hell, if MADD gets ever gets their way the oldschool version of prohibition may be like a picnic, compared to what it would be like in modern times. You think they'd let us make anything? (HomeWine making was sort of legal during prohibition as long as you didn't sell)

Look what may be happening in Canada; DUI legislation may expand to allow random breathalyzer tests

No probable cause would be necessary to be forced to breath into a tube.

Quit thinking you can run around the law....if you really want to help, then try to change the laws....Write your congress people, better yet become a congressperson. But quit thinking you can scheme your way through this.

That's what doesn't help give us a good name.

I'm with Revvy here.

How could you have planned this for four months, and never really looked into the legality of it? Every google search I hit says "BE CAREFUL!" A simple call probably would have helped.

One helpful tip that I've learned the hard way is: ANYTIME YOU HAVE A GATHERING OF ANY SORT, NOTIFY THE CITY AND AUTHORITIES AND HAVE AN EXTENSIVE, POSITIVE DIALOG WITH THEM.

Otherwise, at the very least you'll be harassed. Even if you're just holding a knitting party in your front yard. I've been harassed more times than you can count (my gatherings and others...I'm usually the only person comfortable talking with the cops constructively).

Edit: Did you get the permit on the recommendation of the cops, or did you guys try to do the legalese stuff yourself?

meh.

I think that's a high bar for anyone to say that they should have known better given that they worked with the University and this was their first try.

This forum exists because people make mistakes.

kaiser423 said:

Even if you're just holding a knitting party in your front yard. I've been harassed more times than you can count (my gatherings and others...

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Boy you must throw some hellacious knitting parties there!

Is this part of your crew?

Sorry, I have to go with the rest of these guys. Selling the beer was your mistake. Call it what you want, money changed hands while beer was changing hands. As a college student, even I wouldn't have tried this. Someone at my school tried to start a homebrew club and had to fight with the student society about it for about 6 months prior to getting approval. But they never tried to sell homebrew at gatherings.

Sorry that happened to you, bummer that the cops dumped your wort.

I think the better plan would have been to just give away the beer, free, in large quantities, then when people start passing out you go though their pockets. Easy fun raiser!

ChshreCat said:

I think the better plan would have been to just give away the beer, free, in large quantities, then when people start passing out you go though their pockets. Easy fun raiser!

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I think even this (although somewhat brilliant idea) might be against a couple laws here or there.....Larceny being one of them.

Revvy said:

I think even this (although somewhat brilliant idea) might be against a couple laws here or there.....Larceny being one of them.

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awwww... now you're just bein' picky!

ChshreCat said:

I think the better plan would have been to just give away the beer, free, in large quantities, then when people start passing out you go though their pockets. Easy fun raiser!

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Just make sure they still had their shoes on though.

The sad thing is, that had you known, or talked to us, that $2,500 could have bought a large selection of legal micro/craft brews, which obviously you culd have sold, and you could have done a great educational tasting and perhaps as an educational component of the event, even done a homebrewing demonstration, and not have that been dumped, since it wasn't going to be consumed that day.

ChshreCat said:

I think the better plan would have been to just give away the beer, free, in large quantities, then when people start passing out you go though their pockets. Easy fun raiser!

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This. Do this.:rockin:

Revvy said:

Boy you must throw some hellacious knitting parties there!

Is this part of your crew?

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They were much older. I was being serious. Was walking over to a friend's house where his grandma was holding I think a quilting party (was wrong about the knitting I think).

The cops were out there all harassing the old ladies about parking and having a gathering that disturbed the neighborhood, took up tons of space, etc. Cops will show up anywhere on the smallest complaint. If you're doing anything with a permit, you really need to know you're rights and what you're getting with the permit.

I'd like to find out where this undercover person spends their days...Anonymous...

Seems to me like the cops were trespassing on private property, but then again schools take federal funding...

Revvy said:

+1,000,000,000
Don't believe me? Check out this Cops episode if you haven't already....look at what "John Law" has to say about our little hobby. "The concotion he was making could be deadly..."

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To be fair, they thought he was distilling, not just making beer. To the untrained eye the setups for homebrewing and home distilling look pretty similar. And you CAN be hurt drinking methanol from an improper distillation.

Revvy said:

The sad thing is, that had you known, or talked to us, that $2,500 could have bought a large selection of legal micro/craft brews, which obviously you culd have sold, and you could have done a great educational tasting and perhaps as an educational component of the event, even done a homebrewing demonstration, and not have that been dumped, since it wasn't going to be consumed that day.

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I really don't think an, "I told ya so", is particularly helpful.

Hindsight hey.

6 months before the kegs get back to you...that part sucks.

kaiser423 said:

This. Do this.:rockin:

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Can we try this on Nov 5th???

Well, the selling of homebrew was clearly illegal, although I don't know how you can not know that if you spent 4 months working with the police and the college. Keeping the kegs is a bit much, although they probably want to retain them as evidence in case of any pending litigation.

The worst part, and uncalled for, IMO, was the dumping of the wort and shutting down the demonstration. Well, the demonstration being shut down was likely just to disperse a crowd who might have been a bit rowdy after the confiscation of all that homebrew. Preventing a riot you might say.

Well, better luck next time! Could have been worse. Then again, they could have just shut down the event and sent everyone home with their beer IF they felt like it.

For those of you who don't know the legend that is the Ohio University party reputation I think this is the underlying issue. Someone said give the Home Brew club enough rope to hang themselves, it's more like give the POPO an inch and they'll take a mile. Yes it was "illegal" and I'd bet if this happened somewhere other than OU the cops would just have shut the operation down without confiscating the kegs.

weirdboy said:

To be fair, they thought he was distilling, not just making beer. To the untrained eye the setups for homebrewing and home distilling look pretty similar. And you CAN be hurt drinking methanol from an improper distillation.

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But that's the point I was trying to make, these were cops, and since to their "untrained eye" they couldn't distinguish between brewing and distilling, they still came at it like it from a law enforcement perspective that it was wrong, and dangerous.

I know a few brewers who have had the popo pull up and eye their copper coil chillers with suspicion. One of the guys I know who has had an issue happened to be a police dispatcher, and had to school his own officers on the difference, when they showed up on his door.

That's the point, there is so much ignorance/fear/suspicion about this hobby thart we has brewers have to contend with and try to educate others.

That's why things like the American Homebrew Societie's Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day is an important community event to educate and introduce people to the hobby, including demystifying and clearing up misconceptions about homebrewing. That's why I encourage brewers to get involved and make it a big deal, but NOT just in their back yard with a couple friends but to work their homebrewshop, or local club, or communtiy organization to have it in a public space with lots of walk traffic and to promote it heavily.

One of the places I do it at is at Cap N Cork, which is a large homebrew shop in Metro Detroit, we usually get 20-30 people brewing and hundreds of people coming through asking questions and tasting beer (since there's no selling it is legal.)





Here's the HBT Michigan Masher's Tent from Last year.



The last 4 of us who were (relatively sober enough) at the end of the event, and still there to have our picture taken.