Lagering outside

Hi everyone. This is my first post, so be gentle.

I'm a recent (fanatical) convert to homebrew and my obsession is slowly taking over my life. Sadly, I don't have the funds to purchase the necessary equipment (mainly real estate with room for a fermenting fridge or cold storage) but I'm really eager to take on a pilsner very soon. I live in Vancouver, and in a month or so, autumn will kick in and we'll have temperatures from about 2-4 C in the evening and 10-12 in the daytime. If I stick my secondary outside during this time, will this be better than simply using a neutral ale yeast? How will the fluctuation affect the beer?

Oh, and don't worry. I'm relaxed. And I'm having a homebrew.

I ghetto lager in the winter here in michigan....I live in a loft and we have a garage (which is the former loading dock of the department store this used to be.)

In our garage we each have wooden storage lockers, and once the deep freeze of winter kicked in, the lockers and the garage were only in the 40's during day time, and much colder at night. So I did a few lagers down there...It worked OK...you just need to make sure you have a couple straight months of steady cold temps...a few weeks to ferment and at least a month to lager in secondary.)

The only issue I ran into was discovering this ability too late into the winter, and abruptly running into spring like temps while one of my batches was still conditioning.

Where outside exactly are you sticking it?

Well, I live in a low rise, on the ground floor. So I will put the carboy directly outside, on my ground-floor balcony', where it will have shelter from west-coast rain. I'd probably put it in some sort of cooler to keep the sun off and temperatures more constant.

Batinse said:

Well, I live in a low rise, on the ground floor. So I will put the carboy directly outside, on my ground-floor balcony', where it will have shelter from west-coast rain. I'd probably put it in some sort of cooler to keep the sun off and temperatures more constant.

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I would build some sort of insulated box/fermentation chamber...first to hide it from prying eyes, protect it from UV exposure AND to maintain a somewhat constant temp, you don't want it to go to a hard freeze...someone posted a thread about that once, iirc using a glass carboy, which cracked.

I would get get a thermometer with a log needle probe and drill a hole in the top of the cabinet with the probe sticking in, not into the fermenter, just in the airchamber around it, so you can check the temps regularly...If you really got fancy smancy using a digital probe thermometer where you can set the high and low temp range with an audible, so you know the beer isn't nearing freezing point, and lets say not going above the yeast's top range.

Well, my DIY skills are positively primeval, but I think I can handle a box. Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a shot!

Batinse said:

Well, my DIY skills are positively primeval, but I think I can handle a box. Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a shot!

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Look around on our DIY section for different fermentation chambers (not the electric kind )but boxes lind inside with pink foam insulations...

I would suggest just get a cardboad box and glue inslilation inside but that wouldn't survive rain or anything....

Are you planning to use only one fermenter in your lager?

If so you could get a large tplastic rash can and turn it over the bucket or carboy....and you could line it inside with some insulation. Anything to create a chamber to protect your fermenter from the elements.

Good luck! Nice to see some more Vancouver-ites on here!

Keeping a constant temperture is almost nesessary in making a good lager, almost as much as lower fermentation tempertures. If you are planning on a lager, then looking to keep your primary steady around 10c is one key to success. Only then do you decrease temps to lagering temps of about 2 to 4c.
Keeping your fermenters/lagering carboys in a bucket of water helps even out uneven temperture swings, provided you don't let the water freeze. This along with the other suggestions already provided should help you along.
Best is getting an extra fridge off kijji for example and adding a temperture controller. Not all that expensive if you have the room to fit it in your place.

boo boo said:

Keeping a constant temperture is almost nesessary in making a good lager, almost as much as lower fermentation tempertures. If you are planning on a lager, then looking to keep your primary steady around 10c is one key to success. Only then do you decrease temps to lagering temps of about 2 to 4c.
Keeping your fermenters/lagering carboys in a bucket of water helps even out uneven temperture swings, provided you don't let the water freeze. This along with the other suggestions already provided should help you along.
Best is getting an extra fridge off kijji for example and adding a temperture controller. Not all that expensive if you have the room to fit it in your place.

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But if you have natural, steady and long cold, you would be surprised how successful "Ghetto" lagering can be. I did 4 batches last winter, My cream ale using lager yeast, My Rogue Dead guy/maiboc using lager yeast, AA vienna lager, and a swartzbier...and all except the swarzbier were exquisite, very very clean...and the swartzbier was drinkable, but I ran out of true lager temps, so it wan't as clean as the others.

And all I did was chuck the fermenter in my cold closet for a month, bring iit up to my place for a d-rest, and racked it to secondary and lagered them for a month.....

Don't forget long before there were fridges, and temp control, there were lagers, usually in cold caves or underground vaults, kept cold only by ice and the ambient cold temps around it, and brewed seasonally. Heck MOST of the lagering in the 1800's were done that way....Ask Llabatt's and Molson up your way

Someone wanting to try their hand at lagering for the first time, or seasonal brewing for that matter, like I did, can with some ingenuity come up with a way to do it in colder weather.

I think the water bath is a good idea, but I would be worried about that freeaing...I wonder if using a salt bath, or a little glycol antifreeze in the water bath would work???

If you don't mind ugly, a sheet or two of extruded insulating foam and a can of spray urethane can do the job. Leave the bottom open and set your fermenter on a slab of foam, then set the box over it.

What happens to the beer if the temps get down to things like 10 degrees?

I lager outside during winter and it's fine. I float my fermenter in a trashcan full of water. Even with a 20F (~10C) day/night fluctuation in the air temperature, the thermal mass of the entire system only fluctuates by a degree or so at most. If you're lucky, you live somewhere where the average temperature is what you need. I live on the US west coast where the average temperature is around 40F (5C). During my primary fermentation I use a cheap old aquarium heater in the water bath to keep temperatures up above 50F (10C). Then, during the lagering phase, I add frozen 1 liter soda bottles to the water bath every three or four days to keep the average lagering temperature down around 35F (2C). Definitely manual and low-tech, but it works.

riromero said:

I lager outside during winter and it's fine. I float my fermenter in a trashcan full of water. Even with a 20F (~10C) day/night fluctuation in the air temperature, the thermal mass of the entire system only fluctuates by a degree or so at most. If you're lucky, you live somewhere where the average temperature is what you need. I live on the US west coast where the average temperature is around 40F (5C). During my primary fermentation I use a cheap old aquarium heater in the water bath to keep temperatures up above 50F (10C). Then, during the lagering phase, I add frozen 1 liter soda bottles to the water bath every three or four days to keep the average lagering temperature down around 35F (2C). Definitely manual and low-tech, but it works.

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Thanks for the info....I am looking to doing more ghetto lagers this winter.

Revvy said:

Thanks for the info....I am looking to doing more ghetto lagers this winter.

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Truth be told, I do everything outside in the backyard year round; mash, boil, ferment and bottle. During the winter I also ferment my ales using the aquarium heater in a trashcan water bath method. Aquarium heater thermostats rarely go lower than 60F though, so ordinarily lagers are out of the question. But I'm fortunate to have a crappy old one that only holds 55F when it's set on 65F. And even I will admit that the frozen PET bottle procedure can be a pain in the butt. If I lived in the frozen tundra (anywhere north of Bakersfield, CA and east of I-5) it would be easier since I could add a temperature controller and hit any temperature I damn well pleased.

petep1980 said:

What happens to the beer if the temps get down to things like 10 degrees?

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beerscream!

i might have to try ghetto lagering this winter. i can find a big plastic garbage bin and put my primary into it and leave it on the balcony.

Pivzavod said:

beerscream!

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Oh great my boss is gonna kill me for shorting out this keyboard with my coffee.....

These are some great tips! Thanks! Looks like I'll be lagering sooner than I thought. Cheers.

Batinse said:

These are some great tips! Thanks! Looks like I'll be lagering sooner than I thought. Cheers.

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I might not be too far behind you...it was 8c across the river from me in Sarnia, Ontario this morning according to the CBC.

I actually lagered in the garage last winter with a space heater blowing on the carboys just to keep the temp high enough. It turned out great.

Short Drive said:

I actually lagered in the garage last winter with a space heater blowing on the carboys just to keep the temp high enough. It turned out great.

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Any idea what you temps were during the process?

This is cool, I'm not the only one who lagers without a fridge...I am getting excited about the season coming...er....but that would mean I'm looking forward to winter...but I hate winter. Except that I can make good beer now. Which means I will have good ber to drink in the winter, and I won't mind the winter, so it is a win win for me!

Are you all talking about fermenting temps (50ish?) for lagers, or actual lagering/storing of the beer? From what I understand you ferment around 50, and then store for months at 30 something. Is this right? If so I'm definitely fermenting a Classic American Pilsner once the cellar gets to 50, because that is a constant temp. Where I live, above ground temps are all over the place. It has been snowing one day, and 70* 2 days later. No joke.

ODaniel said:

Are you all talking about fermenting temps (50ish?) for lagers, or actual lagering/storing of the beer? From what I understand you ferment around 50, and then store for months at 30 something. Is this right? If so I'm definitely fermenting a Classic American Pilsner once the cellar gets to 50, because that is a constant temp. Where I live, above ground temps are all over the place. It has been snowing one day, and 70* 2 days later. No joke.

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That's right. Several weeks in the 50s and 8 weeks just above freezing. Keeping it cold enough is the challenge for me too. But if it snows where you live you've got a decent chance with a water bath because that volume of water will take forever to change temperatures significantly. Use a floating thermometer and toss some ice in the water if it looks like the temperature will be too high for a couple of days. It'll turn out great.

Cool. Yea my cellar has been a constant 68 recently, so I shouldn't really have to do anything once it gets to 50. I'm going to see if I can set the freezer portion of my fridge/keggerator to above freezing so I could lager it in there. If not (don't have high hopes) I may have to do a swap bath for months, which would be a pain.

Quick question.. As long as the beer doesn't freeze and stays in the 30's F, then it should be fine? I live in michigan as well and this is very possible keeping the container in water.

jschaf said:

Quick question.. As long as the beer doesn't freeze and stays in the 30's F, then it should be fine? I live in michigan as well and this is very possible keeping the container in water.

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Before I started using an aquarium heater, I had a lager get up to 1/2" of ice on top when the temperature was unusually low. It turned out great. But frozen solid? I can't say.

riromero said:

Before I started using an aquarium heater, I had a lager get up to 1/2" of ice on top when the temperature was unusually low. It turned out great. But frozen solid? I can't say.

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Eisbock?

thanks, I'm sure I wouldn't let it get completely frozen anyway.

How about digging a hole in the ground, inserting a concrete form tube and stashing a corny of lager down in there. Cover the opening well with 2" of foam board to keep air from getting in/out.

Bobby_M said:

How about digging a hole in the ground, inserting a concrete form tube and stashing a corny of lager down in there. Cover the opening well with 2" of foam board to keep air from getting in/out.

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That would probably work. But, since it doesn't even snow where I live, I have no clue how cold the ground stays in winter in places that freeze over. You guys will have to do the experiment and let me know.

Revvy said:

Any idea what you temps were during the process?

This is cool, I'm not the only one who lagers without a fridge...I am getting excited about the season coming...er....but that would mean I'm looking forward to winter...but I hate winter. Except that I can make good beer now. Which means I will have good ber to drink in the winter, and I won't mind the winter, so it is a win win for me!

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I was able to keep the carboy temp at around 54 degrees for fermentation and the low 40's for lagering.

One question Im doing my first lager its fermented and lagered and i bottled it one week ago and ive read in some books to keep it at room temp until its ready to drink and others say one week at room temp then back to cold temp for longer , so what do you all do when lagering

First off, this is a 3 year old long dead thread.

If you keep it too cold in the bottle it won't carbonate and you might kill off the yeast before it does.

manhattanksbrewer said:

One question Im doing my first lager its fermented and lagered and i bottled it one week ago and ive read in some books to keep it at room temp until its ready to drink and others say one week at room temp then back to cold temp for longer , so what do you all do when lagering

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The beer will clear more quickly if you get it as cold as possible. Otherwise, there will be no difference in flavor regardless of the lagering.

[woops, what zac said, forgot about bottle carbonation. ]