Bob
Well-Known Member
This post came from here, wherein I opined that roasted barley has no place in Porter. In the interest of preventing thread hijacking, I've started a new thread.
True. Extra Stout Porter, etc., y'dig? Stout historically is an offshoot of Porter. However, that was then, this is now.
Again, true. But when I wrote about roasted barley in the other thread, I had in mind 2008 style standards. In 2008, it is impossible to make Dry Irish Stout without roasted barley. Not black, chocolate, Carafa, or any combination thereof; roasted barley and roasted barley alone, in relatively large proportions, is appropriate in Dry Irish Stout.
If you ask me - and you didn't - the BJCP is simply responding to the weight of brewers who put roasted barley in porter. I prefer to go by Terry Foster's pronouncement of "No roasted in Porter" - but then, in the recipe section of "Porter" (in the Classic Styles series), he lists a recipe with roasted barley in it! [throws up hands] Sheesh.
Historical precedent or not - and that's a really intricate argument about definitions - I don't think the flavor is appropriate compared to benchmark styles. A combination of black patent and chocolate give the appropriate flavor; roasted doesn't. Simple as dat.
Yes, black patent is a type of roasted barley. The main difference is that roasted barley is not malted; black patent is black patent malt. Black patent has a unique flavor and color potential; it tastes very astringent, sharp and phenolic, smells acrid and burnt, and provides in small proportions a brown color, in large, black. Roasted barley is more nutty, has a smoother roasted bitterness, smells toasty, and provides in small proportions a garnet-red color, in large, black. Comparatively speaking, black patent malt has a much harsher roasted character than roasted barley.
Crystal malts are made by raising the temperature of the sealed kiln rapidly after germination, instead of aerating the malt floor and gently and slowly raising the temperature (like is done for pale malt). The crystal malt process "mashes" the starches in the barleycorn itself, and the heat crystallizes the sugars. Further increasing the temperatures in the kiln produces different depths of Lovibond degrees.
Yes, it did, thanks to technology. Historically, roasted barley didn't exist except as a byproduct of malting. In the 18th and early 19th centuries - until the advent of the drum roaster - Porter was brewed from a mix of brown and amber malts. Some historical brewing texts even give instructions on how to make Porter malt from regular pale malt; that's what I did for this past Saturday's brew.
Even before the drum roaster made possible very pale malt at reasonable prices, porter brewers knew that, even though brown malt was much less expensive than pale malt, pale malt gave such a greater yield of 'saccharum' that it more than offset the cost. Until the drum roaster made possible high-kilned malts of consistent quality and characteristics, however, it still paid to use higher-kilned amber and brown malts in porter brewing.
But that's all only of interest to someone trying to brew an historical porter. I was talking about the 2008 style characteristics. I still contend that robust porter should be brewed with four malts - pale, crystal, chocolate and black patent. When you add roasted barley, you've made a stout. Congratulations.
That's true, because black patent malt character is essential to Robust Porter. (See above.) If you read further into the BJCP, the darkest roasted malt appropriate is Chocolate and equivalent.
If you swap roasted barley for black patent malt, you've made stout, not porter, because the flavors are completely and obviously different.
Cheers,
Bob
It's kinda confusing isn't it? Since there was historically little distinction between stouts and porters (you would know, oh Obi Wan of costumed/historical brewing
True. Extra Stout Porter, etc., y'dig? Stout historically is an offshoot of Porter. However, that was then, this is now.
Again, true. But when I wrote about roasted barley in the other thread, I had in mind 2008 style standards. In 2008, it is impossible to make Dry Irish Stout without roasted barley. Not black, chocolate, Carafa, or any combination thereof; roasted barley and roasted barley alone, in relatively large proportions, is appropriate in Dry Irish Stout.
If you ask me - and you didn't - the BJCP is simply responding to the weight of brewers who put roasted barley in porter. I prefer to go by Terry Foster's pronouncement of "No roasted in Porter" - but then, in the recipe section of "Porter" (in the Classic Styles series), he lists a recipe with roasted barley in it! [throws up hands] Sheesh.
Historical precedent or not - and that's a really intricate argument about definitions - I don't think the flavor is appropriate compared to benchmark styles. A combination of black patent and chocolate give the appropriate flavor; roasted doesn't. Simple as dat.
Yes, black patent is a type of roasted barley. The main difference is that roasted barley is not malted; black patent is black patent malt. Black patent has a unique flavor and color potential; it tastes very astringent, sharp and phenolic, smells acrid and burnt, and provides in small proportions a brown color, in large, black. Roasted barley is more nutty, has a smoother roasted bitterness, smells toasty, and provides in small proportions a garnet-red color, in large, black. Comparatively speaking, black patent malt has a much harsher roasted character than roasted barley.
Crystal malts are made by raising the temperature of the sealed kiln rapidly after germination, instead of aerating the malt floor and gently and slowly raising the temperature (like is done for pale malt). The crystal malt process "mashes" the starches in the barleycorn itself, and the heat crystallizes the sugars. Further increasing the temperatures in the kiln produces different depths of Lovibond degrees.
Yes, it did, thanks to technology. Historically, roasted barley didn't exist except as a byproduct of malting. In the 18th and early 19th centuries - until the advent of the drum roaster - Porter was brewed from a mix of brown and amber malts. Some historical brewing texts even give instructions on how to make Porter malt from regular pale malt; that's what I did for this past Saturday's brew.
Even before the drum roaster made possible very pale malt at reasonable prices, porter brewers knew that, even though brown malt was much less expensive than pale malt, pale malt gave such a greater yield of 'saccharum' that it more than offset the cost. Until the drum roaster made possible high-kilned malts of consistent quality and characteristics, however, it still paid to use higher-kilned amber and brown malts in porter brewing.
But that's all only of interest to someone trying to brew an historical porter. I was talking about the 2008 style characteristics. I still contend that robust porter should be brewed with four malts - pale, crystal, chocolate and black patent. When you add roasted barley, you've made a stout. Congratulations.
That's true, because black patent malt character is essential to Robust Porter. (See above.) If you read further into the BJCP, the darkest roasted malt appropriate is Chocolate and equivalent.
If you swap roasted barley for black patent malt, you've made stout, not porter, because the flavors are completely and obviously different.
Cheers,
Bob
