Revised buying guide for pH meter (based on the book Water)

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ocluke

ocluke

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It seems that there is need for a revised buying guide for a pH meter based on the specs outlined in the book, Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers, by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski.

Here are the recommended specs in the book (pg. 244):
  • +/- 0.02 pH accuracy
  • ATC (Auto Temperature Control)
  • Two-point calibration
  • Sealed or refillable electrode with a resolution of +/- 0.02 pH or smaller
  • Double junction electrode
  • Flushable junctions, which allows for easier cleaning and longer life

There is a great thread on HBT by Kaiser from 2009 that had recommendations, but it seems fitting to list some new recommendations based on this recently published book.

Feel free to reply below with recommended pH meters that meet these minimum specs.

For easy reference, I'll update possible options here as this thread develops:
Hach Pocket Pro+ ($110+17 shipping) - Recommended by ajdelange here.
OMEGAETTE PHH-7011 ($95+ unknown shipping. Includes case and pH buffers). Recommended by kerklein2 here.
 
I know the books are still warm from the press but even so I'd change a couple of things in those recommendations

1) You ought to be able to get 0.01 pH accuracy* for a surprisingly low price today. If you can do so.
2) ATC is still on the list not so much because you need ATC as because its presence tells you that the meter is digital (absence of manual calibration potentiometers tells you the same thing.
3) Two point calibration is a must have
4) In order to have 0.01 or 0.02 accuracy the meter will have to have 0.01 resolution so that is a must. This is a property of the meter - not the electrode.
5) I'm replacing the double junction requirement with the broader 'junction design suited for brewing'. Double junctions used to be important in brewing because of the formation of silver/protein complexes in single junction designs. This problem seems to have been solved. I discovered the other day that none of the electrodes I use with success in brewing are actually double junction designs and yet they perform in the brewing environment.
6) Renewable junctions are a plus but they add a lot to the cost of an electrode and don't seem to be as necessary as they used to be. IOW I think there have been some breakthroughs in electrode design and I think they have been in the junctions.

Now I'll add a couple more requirements

7) Stable electrode. This means that readings don't wander all over cock Robin's barn within a few minutes of calibration. This is a major problem with some inexpensive meters.
8) Related to 7) is the ability to tell the meter when to accept a calibration reading. (I've been experimenting with a Hanna pHep that is actually quite stable but it decides when to accept the calibration reading and does so too soon so that the meter is not properly calibrated.

8)Isoelectric pH within 1/2 pH unit of pH 7. This is a 'nice to have' as you can correct readings from meters that have isoelectric pH that doesn't meet this spec. This effectively opens up the range over which ATC works properly.

9) Long electrode life. A good electrode will last for 3 or more years.

Hach has a new low cost meter out. It appears to meet all these requirements (except 7 and, as its new, no hint as to how it might do RE 9). Some performance data is at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/first-time-building-up-ro-water-apa-443205/

*This means the error contributed by meter and electrode is at the 0.01 pH level demonstrable by calibrating and then reading the calibration buffers over time and temperature. RMSE should not exceed 0.01 pH over a small but finite temperature band. This does not mean absolute accuracy as the buffers themselves introduce error of, typically, a bit less that 0.02 pH.
 
I was looking at the new hach meter and it looks good, the only concern I have is the temperature range only goes to 120f. Could be a problem checking mash pH.
 
And that is, among other reasons, why we don't check mash pH at mash temperature (i.e. stress on the electrode). The other reasons are that as commercial brewing operations don't check at mash temperature the literature contains mostly (but not always and it often isn't clear) reference to pH referred to or measured at room temperature. In the extensive discussion of mash pH you see in these fora the measurements are taken, or referred to room temp. All the pH prediction programs/calculators/spreadsheets refer to room temp. Etc.
 
Ok that makes sense, at what temperature should we check pH level at? How do you cool your sample quickly so that mash adjustments can be made if needed? An ice bath?
 
I will look into the Hach meter. Thank you.

The other one I've seen mentioned is the OMEGAETTE PHH-7011, which at $95 for the pH meter, a a carrying case and buffer solutions, it seems like a good (maybe too good to be true?) deal. Any thoughts on this pH meter?
 
molson said:
Ok that makes sense, at what temperature should we check pH level at?
Click to expand...
Room temperature. 20 °C.

molson said:
How do you cool your sample quickly so that mash adjustments can be made if needed? An ice bath?
Click to expand...

Various ways. One guy here puts a shot glass in the fridge or freezer and adds enough sample that it cools to room temperature. I put the sample in a small (4") saucepan and float that on cold water in the sink.
 
The_Gerbil_Brewer said:
Did you end up going with one of these? If so what was the deciding factor and how do you like it?
Click to expand...

I'm actually ordering today. I want to order the Omega because it seems to be as good of a product for a better deal with a much less expensive replaceable sensor, but having not seen any tests on its real world performance, I'm going to order the Hach per ajdelange's recommendation and testing.

I considered the Hach Pocket Pro+ Multi 2 Tester because it has TDS (I use RO water) and other metering all in one place, but I haven't seen anyone recommending that meter and it adds $63 to the price. My RO already has an inline TDS meter, so I'll just monitor that.
 
ocluke said:
I'm actually ordering today. I want to order the Omega because it seems to be as good of a product for a better deal with a much less expensive replaceable sensor, but having not seen any tests on its real world performance, I'm going to order the Hach per ajdelange's recommendation and testing.

I considered the Hach Pocket Pro+ Multi 2 Tester because it has TDS (I use RO water) and other metering all in one place, but I haven't seen anyone recommending that meter and it adds $63 to the price. My RO already has an inline TDS meter, so I'll just monitor that.
Click to expand...

Ocluke, I actually pulled the trigger on the Hach today as well. As I dug in more I had similar thoughts (Omega less $, similar features, and included solutions/case) but didn't see much on the real world performance. Ultimately, ajdelange's assessment is what did it for me. Sadly, there is a 1 month lead time on the Hach so if you order today it's not scheduled to ship until early March... hopefully the 1 month is conservative, and it'll ship much earlier than that!
 
The_Gerbil_Brewer said:
Sadly, there is a 1 month lead time on the Hach so if you order today it's not scheduled to ship until early March... hopefully the 1 month is conservative, and it'll ship much earlier than that!
Click to expand...

Yeah, unfortunately I got that same notice about delays. I called and they said that due to how their process works, dates on your invoice are the earliest you will receive them. Even if they come in earlier, they will not ship to you until that date. Because of that, I canceled my order. I may order the Omega now.

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app
 
ocluke said:
Even if they come in earlier, they will not ship to you until that date.
Click to expand...

I can't believe any company would be:
1) Dumb enough to do that
2) Dumb enough to admit they do that if they are dumb enough to do it.

ocluke said:
Because of that, I canceled my order.
Click to expand...

A small lesson in capitalism.
 
AJ, any thoughts on the omega one? Doesn't appear to be much performance days out there on it, but spec wise?

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app
 
The problem with spec's is that no one (except Hach) says what his specs mean. The specs on the Omega say ± 0.01 plus 1 digit. Since the resolution is 0.01 I assume that to mean ± 0.02 but literally it would indicate a mean error of + 0.01 and standard deviation of 0.01. I'm sure it means ± 0.02 but they aren't saying. The critical part that is omitted is the for-how-long part. The ±0.02 looks good if the meter can maintain that for a reasonable period of time and as the manufacturer won't tell you that it is something that someone here will have to determine by buying one and doing the stability test.

My hope, of course, is that electrode technology has turned a corner and that even the inexpensive meters are now equipped with stable electrodes. It appears that the newer Hach, Milwaukee and Hanna (though Hanna throws the advantage away through a bad calibration algorithm) have stable electrodes though our sample size (the handful of people that have tested and posted here) is small.
 
Thanks AJ. Although the delay is frustrating I think I'll stay with the hach. Been brewing 6 years without one so what's another month to get something that had been tested and proven stable. Thanks again.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app
 
ajdelange said:
I can't believe any company would be:
1) Dumb enough to do that
2) Dumb enough to admit they do that if they are dumb enough to do it.



A small lesson in capitalism.
Click to expand...

Exactly. They actually offered up that information when I asked how solid the date was. If I buy the Omega, I'd be happy to conduct the stability test to share with others, but I'd need a primer on how to do the test. Or, I could ship it to you, you could perform the test, and then you could ship it to me, but I'd want to be able to use it in the next couple of weeks.

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app
 
Well thanks to this thread I'm more confused. I had planned on getting the milwalkee 101 but there is enough negative reviews on their probes consistency.

Whats the consensus on storing the hach meter (dry, with storage solution)? This looks to be the one I will get since the manual is better than the omegas in reference to the specs, and with aj's positive test. Any other final thoughts before I pull the trigger?

Also I know best practice is to use DI water for rinsing these probes, what about just RO water? I was thinking of saving a few dollars and forgoing the DI membrane, but its not that much to include in the long run (and bigger picture of a $300 RO unit).
 
renthispace said:
Well thanks to this thread I'm more confused. I had planned on getting the milwalkee 101 but there is enough negative reviews on their probes consistency.

Whats the consensus on storing the hach meter (dry, with storage solution)? This looks to be the one I will get since the manual is better than the omegas in reference to the specs, and with aj's positive test. Any other final thoughts before I pull the trigger?

Also I know best practice is to use DI water for rinsing these probes, what about just RO water? I was thinking of saving a few dollars and forgoing the DI membrane, but its not that much to include in the long run (and bigger picture of a $300 RO unit).
Click to expand...
Hach is out of stock, so you won't get it until at least mid March.


metabrewing.com - a homebrewing blog focused on experimentation, techniques, wild yeast, sour beers, hop aroma and whatever else sneaks its way in.
@metabrewing (Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Google+)
 
renthispace said:
Whats the consensus on storing the hach meter (dry, with storage solution)? This looks to be the one I will get since the manual is better than the omegas in reference to the specs, and with aj's positive test. Any other final thoughts before I pull the trigger?
Click to expand...

The manual is not very forthcoming about storage and a couple of us have called them and asked. Apparently it is OK to store the electrode dry. As you can see from photos the 'cap' is, in fact, a cup which seals to the body with an o-ring. I have taken to putting a couple of drops of water in the cap so that while the bulb is not immersed in liquid it is immersed in water saturated air and shouldn't dry out completely though, according to what Hach tells us, that wouldn't be a problem.
 
How are people who ordered the Omega liking this ph meter? Does it seem like a good fit? I'm going to order one tomorrow and I've got it down to (like most people) the omega and the hatch.

thanks for any help!
 
laxsoccerguy said:
How are people who ordered the Omega liking this ph meter? Does it seem like a good fit? I'm going to order one tomorrow and I've got it down to (like most people) the omega and the hatch.

thanks for any help!
Click to expand...

I couldn't find any test data on the Omega other than anecdotal "I got it and it seems to work well" reports from the few who have purchased it, so I resisted my natural inclination to be an early adopter and ordered the Hach, per the positive results reported here on this site. My anecdotal feedback is that it's dead simple and works well. Make sure to purchase 4.01 and 7.0 pH buffer sachets for calibration. I also picked up a cheap ($6) 50ml glass graduated cylinder from Amazon for measuring out buffering solution.
 
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Am I correct in assuming all the recommended models have you store the probe sensor wet? It's been a long time but I thought I remembered in the lab I worked the pH meters did not have that requirement. What price point do you need to get to for that feature?
 
Interesting. Does anybody have any reports on the stability testing for the Omega meter?
 
The link is pretty clear. It is a cloth junction which is not renewable/flush able. You aren't going to find a renewable junction in something under $100.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I cannot recommend Omega as a company. I purchased the meter directly from them that is referenced in this thread. It was DOA upon arrival. After dealing with their customer service, they shipped me a new product. It works, but they went ahead and charged me again for the second device. I am having a hell of a time with their RMA process. It has been several weeks now and I've effectively been charged twice for a single working device.
 
These are new products and there are always some glitches in getting them launched. Hach clearly is bending over backwards to take care of people having these problems (which is a clue that there are quite a few of these) and Omega should too. I have used Omega products for years and found that in general they have good stuff. Customer interface, OTOH, is not that smooth or not as smooth as one would expect in the modern web oriented world. If the meter is good then customer service becomes, IMO, a secondary consideration unless it is really bad in which case it moves into primary place. Obviously if we have two meters of about equal price and about equal performance people will tend to go to the company with the better customer service.
 
Hach continues to ship defective units and continues to cheerfully replace then until the customer has a working one in hand. Performance of working ones is excellent. Not much traffic on the Omega offering.
 
I've been quite happy with the performance of my Hach. It doesn't seem like anyone is buying the Omega, or if they are, they aren't posting about it.
 
I have an Omega 7011 and love it. It replaced my Hanna pHep 5 after it crapped out.

It responds much faster than my old pHep 5 and seems to hold the calibration quite well. Calibrated it for the first time in 6 months yesterday and it wasn't off by more than 0.02

Very happy with it, especially consider how much more expensive the Hach is in Canada, but Omega sells for $101 direct from Omega.

I know several other people with the same meter and no one got DOA. No experience with Hach, but would go Omega again and the $40 replacement electrodes is a compelling case.
 
When looking for a pH meter, I came across 5 different brands with pH meters with products that could be used for home brewing. These were

Hanna Instruments
Milwaukee Instruments
Adwa Instruments
HM Digital and
Atago

Other brands are available on the web but as far as I know these are not available from local suppliers such as Omega and Hach. (I am from Denmark)

Hanna-, Milwaukee-, and Adwa- Instruments
Researching the web I made an interesting observation. Hanna, Milwaukee, and Adwa are very likely the same company. They all have office at EXACTLY the same address in Hungary.
...Alsókiköto sor 11., H-6726 Szeged....
So if prices for these 3 brands are similar, it is not a surprise.

It bothers me quite a bit that one company are giving the customer a sense of choice by producing different brand names but are in fact selling the "same crap in different wrapping".

So the choice was now down to HM Digital and Atago.

HM digital
HM is a US company and their pH meters are produced in South Korea. They sell 2 different pH meters that are useful for home brewers:
pH 80 and
pH 200
The main difference is the resolution. pH 80 show results with one decimal and pH 200 with 2 decimals.

Atago
Atago is a japaneese brand and sells only one pH meter - the DPH-2. This pH meter only has a resolution of 1 decimal.

The Choice...
Hereafter it was quite easy for me to choose, and I purchased the pH 200 from HM Digital. As a bonus it was also cheaper than the "Hungarian Huddle"

... and so far I am very satisfied with it and use it for mead brewing.

___________________
meadoflife.blogspot.dk
 
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Very nice! Thanks for the research. As for me, I am kind of used to the 'corporate huddle' I have run across many that do this here in the states. Appliances for one: GE and Hotpoint are the most glaring example... appears they literally go down the same assembly line and at the very end they split and one gets a GE emblem and the other gets a Hotpoint emblem, yet Hotpoint seems to be 10-20% less expensive. Dunno.... So long as it works!


Sent from my BrewPhone using Home Brew, cuz I really didn't want to fire up the computer to post this.
 
I see your point. But for appliances, foods etc you are targeting several customer groups and you will vary prices accordingly. I would have no issue with for example the Adwa being the cheap and Hanna the exclusive, but in this case the prices are pretty much the same - and how many customer segments are there for pH meters :eek:. So having several brands that cost pretty much the same you will give the impression that this is the market price. But when half the brands are from the same Hungarian group, it must reduce the competition.
 
Ah... Not really disagreeing, just stating that it's kind of a normal thing for us here. I don't blame you at all for wanting to buy from someone who isn't so..... Underhanded? Not sure that's the proper phrasing, but I also would prefer to buy from a company that is more 'truthful' in their appearance and marketing.


Sent from my BrewPhone using Home Brew, cuz I really didn't want to fire up the computer to post this.
 

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