Another First Timer, fearing failure!

Hello! I'm so glad I found this board, I feel hope now. We inherited a small apple press, so two weeks ago we ground and then pressed two big boxes of apples we picked (don't know the type, but Washington apples!). We have just under 4 gallons of juice, in the sealed bucket with airlock. After measuring the pH, we added Campden tablets, but I have to admit we added about twice as many tablets as we were supposed to (more like 2 tablets per gallon). Don't ask me how. Then, six days later (we were busy what can I say), we measured the specific gravity, and based on that, added 32 oz of a mix of white and brown sugar, yeast nutrients, then added one envelope of Red Star champagne yeast (first started in 1/4 c. 100F water, like it said on the envelope, and then stirred into the juice). That was Saturday morning. As of this morning-- Monday -- no bubbles. Nothing! After reading a bunch of posts yesterday, we moved the bucket from the garage (around 58 F) into the house, but it's still only around 65 in there.

-- Did adding too many campden tablets cause us an irreversible situation?
-- Did the delay between sulfiting/yeast contribute to this situation?
-- How long do we wait before.....adding another envelope of yeast?
-- Is there a better way to add yeast? Does 'pitching' yeast mean something more specific than adding it?
I am really appreciative, in advance, for any and all tips! There's one Brewer's Supply Store locally, which dictates the on-hand supplies we can easily get.

If you added the yeast six days after the campden, it should be ok. You did have the lid on it, though, so the so2 probably didn't get much of a chance to disapate. 65 degrees sounds ok- go stir it up really well, maybe several times today, to make sure that it's got enough oxygen to enable the yeast to get going. You took probably cold yeast, put it in warm water, then put it in a cold must and in a cold place. The yeast don't like extreme changes, so that will slow them down.

What was the SG when you said you checked it and then added stuff? What was the SG when you actually put the yeast in it?

Listen to Yoop, she knows what she's talking about. Oh and no worries, it can take longer than a couple days to start off, especially is there was some temperature shock for the yeast.

I don't have my notes at hand now -- but the SG came out to 6.7% potential alcohol, and the Cider book we referenced said anything below 9% was 'potentially unstable' so we added sugar based on raising SG. Have not measured SG since adding sugar and yeast.
Since the Cider book by Annie Proulx was our only reference, and it's MADDENINGLY incomplete, that's why we started the cider in the garage -- it said the best temperature for fermentation was 45-55. And then I read on all these posts that WARMER temperatures give you better fermentation.

How long should I wait before giving up on this yeast? Should we move the juice to the warmest room in the house, or put it by a heater vent? When i 'give up,' is it just safe to add another envelope?
Thanks!

We typically don't use a potential alcohol scale to measure gravity, so I'm not sure what the SG would have been. Anyway, you've added the sugar so THAT'S when you check the SG. After you add the sugar, but before fermentation begins. That will give you your OG (original gravity). So, before you think fermentation isn't happening, stir it well and use a sanitized baster or wine thief and check the SG. Take the SG again in three days, and compare. If it's changing, it's fermenting. If it's not, then you can add another package of yeast.

Bubbling isn't really a reliable sign of fermentation- you may or may not have bubbling. The only way to know if your cider is fermenting is by checking the SG measurements. So, for example. it's at 1.090 today, but 1.070 tomorrow. That means it is fermenting. The potential alcohol scale really is useless, so look at the "specific gravity" reading. Many winemakers use the brix/balling scale, but I don't so I'm not familiar with those readings.

Most cider and wine yeast strains like 65-75 degrees well enough to work in that range, including the champagne yeast.

Actually, I meant, the SG reading (sugar content) conversion to potential alcohol -- why we measure the sugar content, right? But I see your point! Tonight I'll measure SG again, and write my notes up in a way I can follow over the next few days.
What's your recommendation for the way to add the yeast? (In case we do add another) (In water, or in cider pulled from the bucket).I really appreciate the tips, Yooper.

Check the SG tonight, and then check it again in two days. I'd stir it up quite a lot, too, if you've had it airlocked since you sulfited it. Having an airlock on it means that the so2 didn't get much of a chance to off-gas so it might be inhibiting your yeast. If in two days, the SG is unchanged, then you could go on to make a yeast starter.

The best way to start fermentation then is to get some apple juice from the store (the kind with NO sorbate or benzoate) and sprinkle the yeast on it, with both of them at room temperature. After an hour, add some of your must and apple juice mixed together. If it's still foamy and active, do that again. Do that over two days, and then pitch all that into your cider. You can just cover the yeast starter with some sanitized foil, or a clean dish towel, but no airlock. You may overcome the oversulfited must by doing this, as well as stirring up the must with a sanitized spoon/paddle, to get rid of the excess so2.

is it ok to use pasteurized apple juice, if it has no other added ingredients? that's all I could find looking yesterday in the grocery stores around here. Also, if it has ascorbic acid added, but nothing else, is that ok? Thanks!

HeidiKitsap said:

is it ok to use pasteurized apple juice, if it has no other added ingredients? that's all I could find looking yesterday in the grocery stores around here. Also, if it has ascorbic acid added, but nothing else, is that ok? Thanks!

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Yep, that's fine! You may not even need it- I have a feeling that now that your temperature is ok, and you'll stir, stir, stir, to get rid of some of the excess sulfite (which may already be mostly gone), and get some oxygen in there, I'm betting it will take off any day now.

Since there isn't always visible signs of fermentation, the SG readings will really help to gauge whether or not fermentation is happening.

Well, this evening we sanitized everything (with boiling water -- how do YOU sanitize?), and measured the SG -- it's 1.07, which is exactly what we'd calculated it to be after our sugar add. Before the sugar add, it was 1.05. This indicates to me it hasn't started fermenting, since the sugar add was supposed to raise it to 1.07. Anyway, we agitated it good with the stainless steel (sanitized!) hand-mixer (the mixing part detaches for easy sanitation!) and now it's in the computer room, and it's 67. So now, for the two day wait! The lid is loosened, the air lock is not on.......any more tips?
What I have gathered out of previous posts: So if in two days no change in SG, and no bubbles/foaming, then I'll make the 'starter'l.....let me clear up your previous instructions:
-- equal parts pasteurized unpreservatived juice, AND my juice? 1/4 c. of each, say? Add the yeast, and after it gets good and foamy, add MORE (again, what quantity?) juice(s)? Let it go a good two days before adding it in?
Let the countdown begin!

HeidiKitsap said:

Well, this evening we sanitized everything (with boiling water -- how do YOU sanitize?), and measured the SG -- it's 1.07, which is exactly what we'd calculated it to be after our sugar add. Before the sugar add, it was 1.05. This indicates to me it hasn't started fermenting, since the sugar add was supposed to raise it to 1.07. Anyway, we agitated it good with the stainless steel (sanitized!) hand-mixer (the mixing part detaches for easy sanitation!) and now it's in the computer room, and it's 67. So now, for the two day wait! The lid is loosened, the air lock is not on.......any more tips?
What I have gathered out of previous posts: So if in two days no change in SG, and no bubbles/foaming, then I'll make the 'starter'l.....let me clear up your previous instructions:
-- equal parts pasteurized unpreservatived juice, AND my juice? 1/4 c. of each, say? Add the yeast, and after it gets good and foamy, add MORE (again, what quantity?) juice(s)? Let it go a good two days before adding it in?
Let the countdown begin!

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Keep stirring the must, too, so that any so2 in excess gets out. Now for the yeast starter- not exactly. You want to make the yeast starter with the juice, and not your must. Your must seems to be oversulfited or something. So you want the nice yeast foamy and ready to go. After you add some straight juice, and it's good, add some more juice. Like a 1/2 cup. Then you can begin adding a 50/50 mix of your must and the juice. A very little at a time- less than 1/4 cup total. Wait an hour or two to ensure fermenation will continue, and do it again. Several times over the next day. Gradually add more must and less juice each time, until you're adding just the must. When you're doing that twice in a row, and it's still going well, then you can pour it into your fermenter with the rest of the must. That should be enough to overcome any residual so2 still in there. Just keep stirring it, and stir for a day or two after you add the yeast, too, to keep aerating it. Once it gets below 1.020, and fermentation slows down, then you can do everything else from there on "quietly"- no stirring, splashing, etc. But until then, splash and stir to aerate it.

I can't think of adding anything to what Yooper said, except "Don't PANIC", don't give up, get the yeast starter going and pitch it.
Welcome to homebrewing and this board and have patience, ciders can take some time.

HeidiKitsap said:

Well, this evening we sanitized everything (with boiling water -- how do YOU sanitize?)...

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If you have some kind of LHBS you will really want to look into a chemical sanitizer like iodophor or san-star. They are much faster and easier than boiling and can be used on all your stuff - plastic, metal, big stuff, little stuff whatever. I even have a spray bottle of sanitizer for spoons or airlocks or stuff that gets set down on the (un-sanitized) counter.

never thought of puting my sanitizer in a spray bottle, an excelent suggestion. just a small warning with the iodophor, it can stain some surfaces so youll want to be careful with that. if you think you have a surface that can be stained some cheap plastic sheeting can be put down to protect whats under it (just be sure to sanitize the top of the plastic sheeting^^)