Let's Talk about My APA - Malt Analysis Inside

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INeedANewHobby

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I haven't been able to get an exact malt analysis from the maltster just yet, but am working on it. For now, we'll use the analysis they provide online!

BACKGROUND: I came upon a deal with our local brewery where we could get bulk grain at great pricing. I jumped on it. I purchased a big bag of Schreier 2-row malt. I made an APA, a cream ale, an Amber Ale, and the same Cream Ale again. ALL of them have been hella chill hazy! For each I did a single infusion AG batch (152-155º for each). I have used Irish Moss, Super Moss, etc on each. I use basically RO water to brew with, with Buffer 5.2 in the mash. For the most recent Cream Ale, I even direct fired it, with a protein rest at 122º before moving onto my Sacc rest at 151º, then mash out. There was a very healthy layer of proteins in the mash tun after sparging!

This was a VERYYY clear beer at room temp in the bottles. But as soon as the cold got it, hazy. I let them lager at 34º for a month or two, and no help.

Malt Analysis - Cargill Malt Specialty Products Group

There's the analysis (very top). I've been doing alot of research on this, and have found great info from Noonan! But I also wanted to pick you all's brains to get a feeler on this.

Cargill Malt - Malt Team FAQ - Brewing

Right there, the maltster recommends a rest at 106-108º (first Q&A on page) and then moving onto the next rests.

I still have more of this malt left. If I brew say the APA again, should I rest at 106ish, then 120's for the protein/beta, then sacc rest, mash out, etc? The beer the first go around (single infusion at 153º) had nice thick creamy head with good retention, medium body well balanced with hop schedule, and finished medium/dry. I was happy the balance and flavor of the beer, just not the clarity!

Thanks :cheers:
 
Chill haze can be difficult to overcome. Is your haze permanent? Because chill haze is cloudiness which is only observable at about 0degC and which completely re-dissolves if the temperature of the beer rises.

The two most important classes of compounds involved in chill-haze formation are:
  • Proteins
  • Polyphenols
Chill-haze is formed by the combination of "haze-sensitive" proteins with "haze-sensitive" polyphenols, mainly via hydrogen bonding. Haze-sensitive means that certain proteins have a higher tendency to form bonds with polyphenols and vice versa.

There are several ways to attack the problem of chill haze.

First is in the mash; you're already sound on that procedure, so I won't belabor the point beyond advising you to omit the 106degF rest; I think it's pointless. Stick with the 120s rest, though.

Second is in the boil. Boil longer than 60 minutes - I prefer 90. In any case, wait until you see hot break formation before adding your first hops charge. Always use a kettle coagulant such as Irish Moss or (better) Whirlfloc.

Third is in the kettle, post-boil. Chill the bitter wort as rapidly as possible. If you don't have an immersion chiller, get one.

That leaves much of the haze-inducing protein behind in the break materials. Don't forget to leave the break material in the kettle! (IOW, don't rack the break material into your fermenter.)

Fourth is in the fermenter after all fermentation has ceased, before packaging. Crash-chill the beer to damn near freezing over 24-36 hours. That will precipitate yeast. At the same time, dose the beer with a fining agent designed to remove haze-sensitive proteins. There are several suitable products on the market, most of which are synthetic amorphous silica gels which selectively remove proteins that contribute to chill-haze but not those responsible for beer foam or mouthfeel. Good alternatives are gelatin, Isinglass and Polyclar.

At this point, if you still suffer from haze, the only other option of which I am aware is a long period of cold storage (lagering). We're talking weeks, here. You said you tried that, but it's worth rementioning.

Hope this helps!

Bob
 
I always have a 60-70 minute boil, and on the cream ales I did 90 since it had a bit more Pilsen malt in it (avoiding DMS). I use a big immersion chiller, most of the time it crashes from boiling to under 80º in about 5 minutes, and under 70º in another 5 or so. I've always used Irish Moss or SuperMoss, whichever I had handy, in the end of the boil. I leave most all the break material in the kettle by whirlpooling. I have lagered all of these near freezing for 1-2 months (some longer trying to see if they'd clear), and to no avail. I tried gelatin on two of these hazed batches, and no luck there either so far (it left a bit more precipitate at the bottom of the carboy, but the haze was not affected much if at all).

The only thing that I haven't been able to rule out is the malt profile/analysis. For those familiar with it, check out the proteins!

Thanks for the reply. Keep 'em coming!
 
I was just reading your thread and noticed you are in Lubbock, awesome.

I assume you got the grains from Triple J. How much was the bag?

Sorry, can't help with your problem just wanted to say whats up to a Fellow Lubbock Home brewer
 
You like the way it it tastes - drink from an opaque mug so you don't have to see the haze. My summer ale (thus far the only beer I make without tons of chocolate malt in it, which tends to overpower any issues of clarity) has lots of chill haze, and it does not concern me, since it doesn't appear to affect the taste, which is what matters, IMHO.
 
I love the beer, don't get me wrong. But I feel like I'm to a technical level in brewing that this is a very do-able goal of beating this chill haze. And it's not just that, but understanding where the flaw came from, and how to beat it with the right technique (not just some additive in the boil).

Does nobody here read into their malt analysis sheet? Has anyone read Noonan's books? Am I on the wrong forum and need somewhere else that there are more technical brewers (not knocking this forum in any way, I'm just really surprised there haven't been any other replies to help)?
 
I would recommend emailing [email protected] and john Palmer could probably answer your question or email him directly from his website howtobrew.com

I would like to check out the home brew club
 
I love the beer, don't get me wrong. But I feel like I'm to a technical level in brewing that this is a very do-able goal of beating this chill haze. And it's not just that, but understanding where the flaw came from, and how to beat it with the right technique (not just some additive in the boil).

Does nobody here read into their malt analysis sheet? Has anyone read Noonan's books? Am I on the wrong forum and need somewhere else that there are more technical brewers (not knocking this forum in any way, I'm just really surprised there haven't been any other replies to help)?

Dude. Haze formation is a very complex problem. The science involved is complex. I posted pretty much everything a homebrewer can effectively impact, and you respond by saying you've tried all that. Really, what more do you expect? If I were reading by this thread, I'd say, "Huh," and move on. So untwist your knickers and let's get back to work.

The only other thing I can think of is HSA. Do you have stability problems other than haze? See, the probability of haze formation skyrockets with oxidation. Oxidation of melanoidins causes in a lower quantity of stable colloids. Unstable colloids promote chill haze and permanent haze in beer. Conversely, the presence of stable colloids inhibits chill haze.

Research has shown that darker beers are inherently more stable and clear. De Clerk attributed this to the presence of large amounts of melanoidins found in darker grains. Melanoidins enhance the stability of colloids and help prevent haze formation. Thus Ecnerwal's successful clarity with his ales containing a high proportion of roasted grains.

Melanoidins don't just come from roasted grains, however. They come from Maillard reactions in the mash. So if you're doing a lot of splashing in the mash tun, that might have an effect on colloidial stability, and thus haze precursor formation.

I think that's a long shot, though. It takes quite a lot of work and/or stupidity for homebrewers to suffer from HSA. From what you're saying, I don't think you're doing that stuff.

Your malt analysis is going to tell you what you already know - you've got a certain amount of haze precursors in your malt. If the maltster advises a rest at certain temperatures, try it. It can't hurt.

I re-read the links you gave in your OP and found the original problem: You and purchased the most challenging malt in their lineup, having picked the malt with higher levels of protein than six-row and Pils! No wonder you're having haze problems! You have exhausted all of the options I can imagine. I don't know what to advise, other than trying that low-temperature rest. If that fails, get another base malt for pale beers and save the Schreier for darker beers.

Cheers,

Bob
 
So is the science behind the protease rests not welcome here? I'm having a blast with this "problem" and thought I'd share. Is there an advanced brewing sub-forum I am not seeing where the tech-heads go to discuss these things? It is actually a good bit more in depth and challenging than just "mash at 122º and cross your fingers!" Noonan wrote a book about the importance of these analysis's (sp?) because it is very much misunderstood and neglected.

Do you ever use brewing salts in your mash??? Then why would you NOT care about what's in your malt? The malt profile is as, if not more, important to the beer as the water profile is (and the experts agree with that statement BTW)! I've done some searching on this forum, and there are a handful of people that do discuss these profiles and make educated decisions about brewing based on them. I guess I was hoping they would chime in too.

In a world where the "experts" in this industry go to school to learn this type of thing, you as a brewer should never be so arrogant to advise that I've "tried everything." I'm only scratching the surface of this issue.

[/RANT]
 
I believe your haze problem is inherent in your malt, according to Cargill's malt analysis. The total protein is high (13.5) and the SNR is also high (50). This malt was probably intended to be used with a significant proportion of adjuncts. I would get rid of any rests besides Saccharification (and higher) and add a significant portion of a malt with a lower TP and SNR to your recipes. That should solve it.
 
So is the science behind the protease rests not welcome here? I'm having a blast with this "problem" and thought I'd share. Is there an advanced brewing sub-forum I am not seeing where the tech-heads go to discuss these things? It is actually a good bit more in depth and challenging than just "mash at 122º and cross your fingers!" Noonan wrote a book about the importance of these analysis's (sp?) because it is very much misunderstood and neglected.

Do you ever use brewing salts in your mash??? Then why would you NOT care about what's in your malt? The malt profile is as, if not more, important to the beer as the water profile is (and the experts agree with that statement BTW)! I've done some searching on this forum, and there are a handful of people that do discuss these profiles and make educated decisions about brewing based on them. I guess I was hoping they would chime in too.

In a world where the "experts" in this industry go to school to learn this type of thing, you as a brewer should never be so arrogant to advise that I've "tried everything." I'm only scratching the surface of this issue.

[/RANT]

I'll back you up. If the chill haze problem is important to you then definately look into it some more. I would recommend sending a PM to one of the people on the forum who might have some insight on this issue. Kaiser comes to mind. Or if you have the time/desire, try brewing using a protease rest. Many of us are satisfied enough that chill haze doesn't bother us, or we use other means to clear our beer like gelatin. For the majority, I'd say its probably because of the time that would be needed for the extra rest. Again, I understand your frustration and if you aren't getting the answers you need in this thread it's because the right people haven't seen it yet, so you need to get their attention. Hope your problem is resolved.
 
So no acid rest, protein rest, etc except for sacc? My cream ale had 1lb of flaked rice in it, and if I recall correctly 1/2lb of 6-row for more diastatic power.

So you think maybe a bit more rice? 2lbs? 3? I've got right about 20lbs of this malt left, so I think I can get two more cream ales attempts out of it, and I'm open to your suggestions!!

Thanks!!
 
Thanks McKBrew! I am not so concerned with haze because I want to win awards really, but for my own vanity (starting out as a Coors Light drinker, I appreciate clear beer still) and love of this hobby. I am intrigued by this new technical side of brewing, and am sure there are others here that share that passion!
 
So is the science behind the protease rests not welcome here? I'm having a blast with this "problem" and thought I'd share. Is there an advanced brewing sub-forum I am not seeing where the tech-heads go to discuss these things? It is actually a good bit more in depth and challenging than just "mash at 122º and cross your fingers!" Noonan wrote a book about the importance of these analysis's (sp?) because it is very much misunderstood and neglected.

Do you ever use brewing salts in your mash??? Then why would you NOT care about what's in your malt? The malt profile is as, if not more, important to the beer as the water profile is (and the experts agree with that statement BTW)! I've done some searching on this forum, and there are a handful of people that do discuss these profiles and make educated decisions about brewing based on them. I guess I was hoping they would chime in too.

In a world where the "experts" in this industry go to school to learn this type of thing, you as a brewer should never be so arrogant to advise that I've "tried everything." I'm only scratching the surface of this issue.

[/RANT]

I am terribly sorry I couldn't go much farther than I did. I'm also sorry you seem to think I'm not making educated decisions about them. So far as I know, there isn't some super-secret sub-forum where the home-brewing Illuminati discuss things we deem over the heads of everyone else. Also so far as I know, I never said any part of your problem was off-limits to discussion.

I do not use brewing salts in my mash, for several reasons: 1., I don't make beers that require modification of my brewing liquor, and 2., I'm satisfied that my liquor provides everything I need to make good beer. I do, however, have quite a bit of experience in the field, professionally and avocationally.

I realize you're only scratching the surface. The trouble is you really have pretty much exhausted all of the techniques you can bring to bear. The interactions in water and malt chemistry are so complex as to be unpredictable without a lot more data. Do you have a complete analysis of your brewing liquor?

All I was trying to do was approach your problem from a practical standpoint. I'm not a good-enough teacher to be able to instruct you on complex mash chemical reactions, and for that I apologize. You have exhausted all of the practical solutions I can bring to bear.

Most homebrewers don't feel the need to go so far as to pay attention to their malt analysis. They're satisfied with what comes out of their mash-tun. If they're not, they seek a couple of solutions or just deal with whatever "problem" might be solved by a thorough examination of the analysis data. That's because, on a homebrew scale, actually acquiring the analysis for the malt you've purchased is extremely difficult. In fact, maltsters generally publish "typical" malt analyses, which are provided before purchase, and a lot analysis of the malt, which is provided at the time of purchase. If you can get the lot analysis, great! Most homebrewers can't even get the analysis, much less be bothered to investigate it.

Have you seen this website? Noonan goes into considerable detail about how to actually read the analyses. I'll quote what I consider the essential bits for your particular problem:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For all-malt beers, protein values exceeding 12% (1.9% TN) indicate that the beer may haze or present mash runoff problems. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When adjuncts are used, malts of more than 10% protein are required to achieve acceptable head, body, and yeast nutrition. [/FONT]
and

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Brewers can accommodate increases in total protein and SNR by adding or modifying low-temperature rests. Decreases are accomodated by shortening the duration of or deleting low-temperature rests. [/FONT]
Once again, we arrive at a bit of a wall, so far as my knowledge extends. It seems that low-temperature rest(s) are the solution, and I encourage you to try the rest advised by the maltster.

Again, I'm sorry I can't be of more help to you. I hope you do devise a solution!

Bob
 
Bob and Mensch made some good points here. The malt is rather high in protein. 13.5% is an awful lot for 2-row barley. No wonder it was cheap. Although your soluble protein ratio is well above 40, which generally indicates that you don’t need a protein rest, such a rest may be necessary to degrade even more of the protein. Haze proteins are to large for the yeast to consume and to small to coagulate during the boil and chilling. As Bob said, add a protein rest and if the maltster suggests starting at 106F, start there.

The problem is that little is known, even among experienced home brewers, about the protein rests. Their affect is not as easy to measure as attenuation and because of the malts available these days it is rarely needed. Would you be able to make this malt work for you? Sure, but it may take some experimenting (since you don’t want to overdo the protein degradation), like a big brewer would, and you would probably use the whole bag of malt for this. And then you have to decide if you want to stick with this malt or find one that has less protein to start with.

I’m surprised that gelatin didn’t work for you. It does a very good job on protein haze. You could try PVPP and see if that works. If it works your haze is actually from tannins.

Aside from that here are other options:
- dilute with rice or corn (you already mentioned that). This is what the big American brewers had to do when they wanted to brew a delicate beer with 6-row.
- use the malt for wheat beers

I once brewed a Pale Ale with a single infusion and Weyermann Pilsner malt. The beer never cleared. But I have been able to brew clear beers w/o a protein rest from Weyermann Pilsner malt (other bags though) since then.

Kai
 
Brewers can accommodate increases in total protein and SNR by adding or modifying low-temperature rests. Decreases are accomodated by shortening the duration of or deleting low-temperature rests.

This seems to go against Noonan's own book New Brewing Lager Beer, where he significantly increases protein-related rest temperatures for higher SNRs.
 
One more.

You said that you got the malt from a local brewery. Tell them about your problem and what mash schedule you are using and ask how they are using this malt. This may get you a better starting point.

Kai
 
Bob: Don't think that I am trying to downplay your replies. You gave me more than I have received anywhere else except in this thread, and I am appreciative.

Thanks for the feedback, Kai! I do have a call into the head brewer at the local brewery that got us the malt. I will see what they've done with it. I'm assuming their clear beer has been partly due to filtering, but we'll see! I guess I could filter as well, but I'm enjoying learning about this so much that I hope it won't be needed!

So the maltster and Noonan (in the excerpt quoted above) recommend a lower temp rest...but Noonan's book says otherwise?? My copy of the book is on order and should be here soon!
 
I'm assuming their clear beer has been partly due to filtering, but we'll see!


Even if they filter, they should pay attention to haze forming proteins and to reduce the load on the filter. The less hazy the beer going into the filter is, the longer the filter can go before it needs to be replaced.

So the maltster and Noonan (in the excerpt quoted above) recommend a lower temp rest...but Noonan's book says otherwise?? My copy of the book is on order and should be here soon!


I don’t think there is a contradiction between the maltster’s and Noonan’s suggestions. You are dealing with a very high protein malt, and Noonan’s recommendation of skipping the protein rest for SNR ratios of 40 and more is likely for low (9-10% protein) malts.

Kai
 
I don’t think there is a contradiction between the maltster’s and Noonan’s suggestions. You are dealing with a very high protein malt, and Noonan’s recommendation of skipping the protein rest for SNR ratios of 40 and more is likely for low (9-10% protein) malts.

Kai

Not to beat this thread to death, but this is curious. Kai, could you elaborate more on protein-related rest temps and how they relate to SNR and Total Protein?... or point me to a source that explains it? I've studied the Noonan stuff, but there appears to be some gaps in his information. Thanks.

(PS: I listened to your guest appearance on BBR... very informative and you really sound like you've put a lot of time and research into the science behind brewing. It was a fun listen because you seem to have brewing knowledge for the sake of learning and brewing good beer, without the ego. Great job!)
 
As I see it, the protein rests (starting at 45C and ending at 55C) serve to reduce the size of the protein molecules. The smallest are consumed by the yeast, the medium long ones contribute to body, head retention and haze and the longer ones coagulate during the boil and cooling. With regular protein malts that have a low soluble nitrogen ratio, a concern exists regarding the amount of the smallest proteins, the amino acids. For a proper fermentation enough FAN (free amino nitrogen) is needed and a protein rest serves to creates more. With high protein malts the protein destructive nature of the low temp rests can help in reducing the number of larger proteins (which can cause excessive haze) by breaking them down into smaller ones that get eaten by the yeast. But if overdone, to many may be broken down and the body/head retention will suffer as well.

But unfortunately there is not a small number of enzymes responsible for that (like the amylases for starch) and it doesn't seem to be as well studied either. Lower temps 45-50C are known to favor the creation of short proteins and higher temps 50-55C are known to favor the creation of longer protein chains. Similar to fermentable sugars ad unfermentable dextrines, but I don't know how valid this analogy is.

Kai
 
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