Conversion from steeping grains?

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Gonefishin

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Hey all, I'm doing a 3-beer 15 gal. batch today. I mashed a pale ale grist bill. Then split the mash into a Pale Ale, a Stout and an India Black. My question is, will my steeped grains convert and increase the OG of the dark beers? (steeped at 150-deg. for 30-miin.) If so, how do I adjust my recipe for these grains. I use BeerSmith All Grain for my recipes and I just add the grains to the recipe as if they were in the mash. Is this the same thing? There is no where I have found to add the steeped grains to my recipe. It has been to long since I've done an extract/steep and I don't remember.
Thanks,
 
Aside from color and flavor, dark grains will give you gravity points from steeping. Whether steeped or mashed, BS counts those. There's little or nothing left to convert when mashed.

Here's BeerSmith's Grain list.
 
I'd be afraid of leaving too much fermentable sugar behind with only steeping and not sparging those dark grains.
 
Sparging is rinsing.

Of course you do want to sparge your steeped grains to rinse the sugars and color off them.
I guess you steeped those grains in your collected wort from the mash, so now there's sweet wort trapped in them.
Squeeze the bag a bit (but don't wring it dry), then dunk in a vessel with a quart (or 2) of hot water for a few minutes, drain and squeeze again.

Especially with dark grains, I sparge them 2x after steeping on the side (outside of the mash). I then add the dark steeped potion after the boil when the wort has chilled to around 160-170F.
 
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Good thoughts, thanks. I figured it would be like BIAB. Just drain, plunge and drain again. I was not so interested in adding to the OG as I was to get the roasted, coffee, and chocolate flavors and the dark color. Thanks again.
 
In that BS grain table, it's kind of interesting to see that (a pound of) Chocolate Malt delivers between 28 and 34 points. Roasted Barley which was never malted, gives 25 points (1.025).
 
If I understand you and your process, I believe what you need to do to get the steeped grains to fully convert is to use one lb of base malt to provide the enzymes needed when you are steeping. While this is not going to be the same as mashing in your mashtun but it should provide better conversion of the Specialty grains.:mug:
 
So next time, (if there ever is a next time!), should I hold back a lb. of my base grains to steep with the specialties? BTW, my OG's were way high for these beers. (1.056, 1.064 & 1.065 for beers that were designed to be 1.044) So much for session beers! Back to the drawing board!
 
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WE need more info on the recipes and the process, I cant even make a good guess!:mug:
 
So next time, (if there ever is a next time!), should I hold back a lb. of my base grains to steep with the specialties? BTW, my OG's were way high for these beers. (1.056, 1.064 & 1.065 for beers that were designed to be 1.044) So much for session beers! Back to the drawing board!

If it was me i'd keep all the base malt in the main mash and just steep the darker grains for the various 'worts' after splitting the main wort. Otherwise you'd have to do seperate mini mashes which would take a while to convert (though maybe only 15 to 30 min with a fairly high mash temp of 156ish?). But that seems too complicated just to get a few extra points from some roasted barley or carafa II and i think steeping and rinsing would get what you're particularly looking for with those types of grains. Just my 2 cents.
 
So next time, (if there ever is a next time!), should I hold back a lb. of my base grains to steep with the specialties? BTW, my OG's were way high for these beers. (1.056, 1.064 & 1.065 for beers that were designed to be 1.044) So much for session beers! Back to the drawing board!

IMO, you could. But you need to mash, not steep. So use a suitable water to grist ratio and a controlled mash temp. You could mash lowish like 148. Just dunking the milled grains in a bag and hang it over the edge in the pot of wort isn't exactly mashing.

Some specialty malts and from what I gather, low Lovibond crystal malt (C5-C20), actually need to be mashed or benefit from mashing over steeping. The dark roasted ones, I'm not so sure about. I steep them for one reason: to keep the resulting black wort out of the boil to prevent acrid and boiled coffee flavors.
 
When I'm in doubt, I often look at this chart to see if I need to mash or steep.

I've heard a variety of things about steeping grains as it pertains to fermentability. I've heard that with some the fermentabilty of the sugars they contribute is stuck due to the process that they were dried/kilned/roasted/etc. I've heard that those starches/sugars are either fermentable as soon as they're rinsed out, or they're in such a form that enzymes in the mash can't convert the starch to sugar at all. I'm more inclined to believe the latter at this point (it seems like darker beers often finish with slightly higher gravities), but this thread has kind of revealed a "blind spot" in my brewing knowledge that I can't believe I haven't figured out yet.

I do know that steeping grains don't contribute anything to the enzyme content/power of a mash. There are probably some exceptions to that, but I find that a a pretty safe assumption to make.

Changing topics a bit, @IslandLizard when do you add the liquid from steeping dark grains to the bulk of your wort? How did you first decide to start doing that?
 
When I'm in doubt, I often look at this chart to see if I need to mash or steep.

I've heard a variety of things about steeping grains as it pertains to fermentability. I've heard that with some the fermentabilty of the sugars they contribute is stuck due to the process that they were dried/kilned/roasted/etc. I've heard that those starches/sugars are either fermentable as soon as they're rinsed out, or they're in such a form that enzymes in the mash can't convert the starch to sugar at all. I'm more inclined to believe the latter at this point (it seems like darker beers often finish with slightly higher gravities), but this thread has kind of revealed a "blind spot" in my brewing knowledge that I can't believe I haven't figured out yet.

I do know that steeping grains don't contribute anything to the enzyme content/power of a mash. There are probably some exceptions to that, but I find that a a pretty safe assumption to make.

That's a good reference, albeit hard to read. I use the table ("database") from BeerSmith.

Sometimes it's a clear cut between steeping or mashing. In general, all can be mashed, but not all can be steeped. There's some gray area as well as an abundance of incorrect information. Carapils/Carafoam being an example of such.

Changing topics a bit, @IslandLizard when do you add the liquid from steeping dark grains to the bulk of your wort? How did you first decide to start doing that?

I add the black liquid well after the boil, after the wort has chilled to around 160-170F. At 165-170F it pasteurizes within seconds, 30 or so at 160F. I used to add it at 180 for all security, but someone here pointed me to more accurate pasteurization temps and times.

Gordon Strong mentioned this, IIRC. It's done to keep the roasted flavors fresher. Some brewers add the dark grains during the sparge, but that still boils the dark flavor compounds for an hour.
 
@IslandLizard I usually add what could be steeping grains to my mash when it wont max out my mash tun, I usually only steep now when the base malt and adjuncts which need mashing are as much as my mash tun can hold by themselves.

So you add the dark wort to the bulk after the boil is completely over. What temp is the "steeping wort" when you add it to the cooling wort? With the temp drop that goes through pasteurization temps might not be complete. I'm sure you've done this enough, though, that you've found that it works.

Maybe I'll try something like this later, add the "steeping wort" at the last 10 minutes of the boil.
 
@IslandLizard I usually add what could be steeping grains to my mash when it wont max out my mash tun, I usually only steep now when the base malt and adjuncts which need mashing are as much as my mash tun can hold by themselves.

So you add the dark wort to the bulk after the boil is completely over. What temp is the "steeping wort" when you add it to the cooling wort? With the temp drop that goes through pasteurization temps might not be complete. I'm sure you've done this enough, though, that you've found that it works.

Maybe I'll try something like this later, add the "steeping wort" at the last 10 minutes of the boil.

Sure, mash tun constraints play a role too in that decision. If that happens often, maybe get a 2nd, larger mash tun. I build mine for $35 from a new 52 qt Coleman cooler, a 2" nipple/bulkhead with stainless washer/silicone ring, a leftover 2-piece stainless valve, and some cpvc pipe and fittings for the manifold.

I sometimes mash in the kettle (step mashes or decoctions) and use the tun only to lauter or hold the resting mash between decoctions. You could dump some in a large pot and mash in the oven (preheated to 150F and turned off).

The dark steeping wort usually sits around for a while. It must have cooled down to around 100-120F, I guess, never measured it. I steep, drain, sparge, drain, sparge 2nd time, and drain again. I'm using a large sieve, no bags. It's usually less than a gallon. Oh, I use 3rd runnings for steeping and sparging liquor, around 1.022 or so.

I turn the plate chiller water and recirculating pump off when I get at 165-170F, hard to hit that precisely. I sometimes have whirlpool hops running at that temp for 15-30 minutes. I then add the black wort and stir. I'm making sure it doesn't drop below 160, holding it there for 30 seconds or so.

Until I understood pasteurization is all that's required, I really prefer to have the dark roasted wort not getting that hot for any length of time. Much smoother and fresher tasting. IMO, 10' in the boil is 20' too hot too long already. :D
 
Sorry so slow to reply. Its that da@%$ work thing. So here is my mash recipe, 16.5 Gal into fermenter(s).
18# Golden Promise; 4#-Munich 20l; 2#-Munich 10l; 2#C40; 1#Cara-pils; .5#Torrified Wheat. 153-deg. for 60-min. Sparge and split 3-ways.
5-Gal. pale Ale
5-Gal. Stout, steep 8-oz. Black Patent; 8-oz. Choc. Wheat; 4-oz. Roasted Barley @ 155-deg. for 30-min.
5-Gal. Casc. Black, steep 8-oz. Black Patent & 8-oz. Choc. Wheat @ 155-deg. for 30-min.
While Sparging I maintained 155-deg. and steeped the specialty grains in my wort. Then drained and completed the sparge and boil.
Recipe was built in BS to be 1.045 OG, @76% BH eff./ 80% mash eff. The P.A. OG was 1.056; the Stout was 1.064 and the CBA was 1.065. Not sure how I came in so high, even at 90% BH eff. OG comes to 1.053.
Thanks,
 
Additional notes. My mash tun (keggle) would not hold the 16+ gal. needed for my mash so volume/lb. was low. Added to sparge volume to make up. I still was at 1.012 after sparge.
 
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