Scottish 80/- recipe critique

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

EnglishAndy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Messages
176
Reaction score
101
Location
London
Hi,

Now I've got a few BIAB sessions under my belt mostly following other people's recipes I'd like to try one of my own. It's intended to be a sessionable 4.5% ABV Scottish Export brew darkened to a level that I think is right for the taste. Here it is (batch size 5.3 gallons (20 litres)):

3.75 lb 40.5% Maris Otter
3.53 lb 38.1% Munich
0.55 lb 6.0% Caramunich II
0.55 lb 6.0% Chocolate Wheat Malt
0.55 lb 6.0% Oats, Flaked
0.17 lb 1.8% Chocolate Malt
0.15 lb 1.7% Special B Malt

0.71 oz 60 mins East Kent Goldings
0.35 oz 30 mins East Kent Goldings
0.35 oz 15 mins East Kent Goldings
1.0 pkg Edinburgh Ale (White Labs #WLP028)

SRM: 31.5
Bitterness: 22.3
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.012


The aim is for a malt-forward complex, dark and smooth ale with just slight hints of roast chocolate and fruit. Hop bitterness should be nothing more than a balance to the sweetness and hop flavor should be mild. The dark wheat malt is in there to bring up the color to a deep brown which is what I believe a beer with these characteristics should look like.

Does this look like a sensible recipe to you guys? Do you think anything's out of balance with the rest? The hop bill and timing in particular is something I'm not sure of. There shouldn't be any aroma to speak of from the hops, just flavor.
 
I'm wanting to make something similar for my next brew. From what I've read, I think you might be going a bit heavy on the hops. Some I've seen only have bittering hops, and if not then they only have a small amount of later hops (what I'm saying is. I'd scrap the 30 minute hops).

I'm thinking of boiling down the first runnings, instead of having a more complex grain bill. I've found a recipe that I'm planning to base mine on. I do BIAB too (with sparging), so I'd probably drain my bag into a pan after mashing and boil that down while I sparge.
 
Hi. I agree with @sven945 about the hop schedule for a "Scottish Ale." I also think what you've proposed isn't really going to be a 80/- Scottish Ale in accordance with the style guideline(s). Now, having said that, I think your recipe will be mighty tasty! I see it as a Scottish Ale/Porter hybrid (somewhat akin to making a dark & tan using a Scottish Ale and a mild porter.) If you make it, please let us know how it turns out, I'd like to try something like that myself. Ed
:mug:
 
It looks tasty! I'd just recommend using English crystals, dark and medium, if you can get them. Might be a touch heavy on the chocolate wheat too, but let her rip. It'll be good.
 
perfect choice for the yeast!
agreed with the above except i'd keep the 60 and 30 minute additions and scrap the 15. thats where you'll keep a smooth bitterness but get rid of the "hop flavor".
i like the marris otter and would stick to that plus:
1)crystal 40 for caramel flavor
2)crystal 80 for toffee flavor
3)chocolate malt (less than 350 SRM...thomas fawcett makes one) for color purposes only
wanna avoid "roasty" flavors according to BJCP but "toasty" are okay.
probably best to stick to just those to keep it simple since the yeast is gonna contribute a lot and you don't want to overwhelm the palate in the final product.
according to beersmith some people use maize or grits sometimes, but i dont think all in one recipe in addition to the scottish pale base malt. supposedly maize helps dry the beer out and grits add a graininess thats to style.
 
Thank you very much for all these replies. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the tips that you've given me.

Based on your feedback I'm going to eliminate the 15 min hop addition and replace the caramunich with English crystal 40 and 80.

Brew day is a week tomorrow and I'll let you know how it goes. Secretly I'm hoping to brew something akin to Wm. Youngers No.3, a very dark almost black Scottish export Ale that I enjoyed very much in North Yorkshire, England in the early 1990s
 
Sounding tasty!

Heads up on WLP028. I do love this yeast for malty english beers, but be warned that its krausen can be quite thick and vigorous. I recommend a blow-off tube for active fermentation (1-4 days), especially if your fermenter has limited headspace. Every time I've had a fermentation-lock shoot off and hit the ceiling, its been WLP028. Aggressive little buggah's. :D

--LexusChris
 
I'd remove the Special B and replace it with Black Patent Malt for colour. Lots of Scottish brewers darkened their 80/ with brewers caramel so you'd be looking at minimising the caramel / roast flavours while keeping it dark. 50g of patent has very little impact on flavour but plenty on colour (25g has no impact on flavour whatsoever).
 
I've been looking for a new scottish ale recipe to try and this sounds terrific. Look forward to hearing how it turns out.
 
Well I'm committed now. The grains have arrived and I just put a 1500ml WLP028 yeast starter in the brew fridge at 68F. 4 days to brew day, fingers crossed!
 
Sounding tasty!

Heads up on WLP028. I do love this yeast for malty english beers, but be warned that its krausen can be quite thick and vigorous. I recommend a blow-off tube for active fermentation (1-4 days), especially if your fermenter has limited headspace. Every time I've had a fermentation-lock shoot off and hit the ceiling, its been WLP028. Aggressive little buggah's. :D

--LexusChris

I agree with this assessment of the yeast's performance. I currently have a wee heavy that got a healthy pitch of wlp028 on Monday and has a nice thick 2" krausen as it ferments at 60-62° (56° ambient) which should keep the esters very minimal. I have heard a dark cherry flavor may result if temps are above 64°.
 
I got my grains, yeast and hops for my brew too. I got WLP028, and goldings hops.

I'm going to try and caramelise a portion of the wort, rather than have much dark malt. I went for mostly golden promise, and 1.2% roasted barley, so it's not going to be dark as it is, but hopefully I'll make up for it with cooking some right down. My OG will be below 1.050 so hopefully I won't have too violent a fermentation.
 
You can (should, really) use brewers' caramel, or if that's not available, sinamar to make it darker.
 
I know I'm late to the party, but do Special B, Chocolate Malt, and Chocolate Wheat fit in with this style? If you're looking for color, maybe some debittered black malt of some kind would be better?

I've heard that you can either boil it for a long time to get some kettle caramelization, which can give a diactyl impression, or use some caramel malts.
 
I know I'm late to the party, but do Special B, Chocolate Malt, and Chocolate Wheat fit in with this style? If you're looking for color, maybe some debittered black malt of some kind would be better?

I've heard that you can either boil it for a long time to get some kettle caramelization, which can give a diactyl impression, or use some caramel malts.

Not really. I think you'll struggle to find a brewery in Scotland that used any of those in the last hundred fifty years. Bar chocolate malt. Even the long boils and caramelization are more of an urban legend. Scottish brewers have always been pioneers of simple mash and boil schedules (that's where English brewers got those from)...
 
You can (should, really) use brewers' caramel, or if that's not available, sinamar to make it darker.

That just colours it right? Not sure I can be bothered if that's just the case! Thanks for the suggestion though.
 
Not really. I think you'll struggle to find a brewery in Scotland that used any of those in the last hundred fifty years. Bar chocolate malt. Even the long boils and caramelization are more of an urban legend. Scottish brewers have always been pioneers of simple mash and boil schedules (that's where English brewers got those from)...

During the mid 20th century Wm. Youngers and McEwan's both colored their beers up to the customer's requirements. From the original typed brewery sheets I've seen they'd take a basic 60/70/80 shilling beer and apply from a set of in-house colors to match what the customer wanted. Certainly the Wm. Youngers No.3 (about 4.2% ABV) that I drank 25 years ago was basically black with a white head, yet had negligible roast character to speak of. I've no idea what the coloring agent was.
 
During the mid 20th century Wm. Youngers and McEwan's both colored their beers up to the customer's requirements. From the original typed brewery sheets I've seen they'd take a basic 60/70/80 shilling beer and apply from a set of in-house colors to match what the customer wanted. Certainly the Wm. Youngers No.3 (about 4.2% ABV) that I drank 25 years ago was basically black with a white head, yet had negligible roast character to speak of. I've no idea what the coloring agent was.

Yeah, colour varied. Shilling ales are funny as they come from the pale ale tradition (often the brewery called them pale ales) but were coloured like dark milds. Dark pale ales!

For Youngers you might find the brewing records but I'd bet for brewers' caramel to customer taste.
 
During the mid 20th century Wm. Youngers and McEwan's both colored their beers up to the customer's requirements. From the original typed brewery sheets I've seen they'd take a basic 60/70/80 shilling beer and apply from a set of in-house colors to match what the customer wanted. Certainly the Wm. Youngers No.3 (about 4.2% ABV) that I drank 25 years ago was basically black with a white head, yet had negligible roast character to speak of. I've no idea what the coloring agent was.

The 1949 Younger's recipe for no3. Note that the beer would have had an estimated SRM of 4 but mostly sold at 12+.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/lets-brew-wednesday-1949-william.html
 
Scottish ales are pretty basic. Pale malt and roasted barley. Maybe some crystal and/or amber malt. Then a hop to bitter. The big key is fermenting cold and long. Any caramelization is the result of brewing pots and fermenters.
 
The 1949 Younger's recipe for no3. Note that the beer would have had an estimated SRM of 4 but mostly sold at 12+.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/lets-brew-wednesday-1949-william.html

I saw that article (and his others) while scouring the internet for the original recipe. Unfortunately the late 20th century ale is very different to the one from 1949.

Here's a link to the article with the original brewery documents circa 1960 showing the colour scales that they'd make up for the same beer. There's even a table of where the customers were that demanded each one. Fascinating stuff.
 
That's cool. I like it keeps the old and brewery names too. Good to be able to go to Inverness and get your local pale ale as dark as midnight.
 
Well I've brewed it. Taking on board the suggestions for recipe changes this is what I brewed:

3.75 lb Maris Otter 41.7 %
3.53 lb Munich 39.2 %
0.55 lb Oats, Flaked 6.1 %
0.33 lb Chocolate Wheat Malt 3.7 %
0.29 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 3.2 %
0.29 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L 3.2 %
0.13 lb Chocolate Malt 1.5 %
0.13 lb Special B Malt 1.5 %

0.88 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.20 %] 60 mins 16.5 IBUs
0.88 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.20 %] 20 mins 10.0 IBUs
3.00 g Irish Moss 10.0 mins

SRM: 25.3
IBU: 26.5
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.012


Brew day was the smoothest I've ever done so far. Starting at 7:30am I was all washed up and done by 1:00pm. Here's a few select photos from my log:

grains.jpg


Obligatory grains shot.

crushed-in-bucket.jpg


Crushed with my malt-muncher set to 32 mils. I'm a BIAB guy so I can crush the heck out of it with no worries.

mash-start.jpg


Start of 75 minute mash at 66C (151F). This is a calibrated thermometer. Brewing water was adjusted to an 'Edinburgh' profile with additions calculated by beersmith.

mash-end.jpg


End of mash. Very little heat loss over the 75 minutes.

hops-on-the-boil.jpg


Hops in the boil. The bags are weighted down with a shot glass in each one.

yeast-starter.jpg


WLP028 yeast starter waiting to be decanted and added to the fermenter.

og-and-colour.jpg


OG measurement and colour - a lovely chestnut brown shade. This was the first time I've crushed my own grain and my brewhouse efficiency has shot up from the mid 60's to 75% - it would have been 80% if I'd opted to take the last 1.5 litres from the bottom of the kettle with the trub in it. Mash extraction efficiency was 80%.

I hit my numbers more or less bang on the beersmith estimates. OG is 1.046 and I collected the predicted volume into the fermenter. I'm really happy that I've opted to start crushing my own grain.
 
It's now been 14 days in the fermenter and I've just switched the fridge on for the cold crash. When it's down to fridge temperatures I'll add gelatine for fining. Bottling day is in 6 days.

The first 7 days were fermented at 65F (18C). That got it down to 1.016. The next 7 days were fermented at 68F (20C) after a gentle stir. That got me down a further 2 points to 1.014 which is where it seems to have stopped 2 points above beersmith's estimate of 1.012. WLP028 seems to take it's time to completely finish up.

The samples have tasted really nice. I know you can't read much from the jumble of unrefined tastes in an unconditioned sample jar but I'm getting smooth nuttiness, smoky mild roast and a background spice flavour from the Goldings.
 
Cold crash/gelatin fining completed after 5 days. I carbed with 80g of table sugar to about 2.0 vols, bottled half and kegged the rest. The yeast had compacted down nice and hard at the bottom of the FV so there was almost no wastage. Hard to tell how clear the beer is because it's rather dark. I always do one in a clear bottle to act as a canary for the others:

bottle-day.jpg


I can't wait to taste it after conditioning because even the dregs at the bottom of the FV that I tasted were lovely! If this is what you get from WLP028 then I'm sold.
 
After two weeks of conditioning me and a friend popped a bottle last night to 'check on progress' and I'm pleased to say it's coming along really well.

The color is inky black with a deep reddish tint if held to the light. Taste is already delicious with a very balanced contribution from the different malts and a mild spicy tang from the EKG hops. "This is a lovely beer" was the comment from my friend, who is something of a connoisseur of dark beers.

I'm already thinking of changes I'd make when I do this one again. I wouldn't change the malts, I think they are in perfect balance for this beer.

I fined with gelatin - since this is a black beer I think that step was un-necessary and removed more yeast from suspension that has muted or slowed the carbonation...

...carbonation: I did 2.0 vols which has carbonated the beer with enough to produce a light brown head and give a tongue-tingle all the way down the glass. My personal preference is for slightly more. I'd do 2.2 or so next time.

The spicy tang from the hop contribution is right where it should be and doesn't detract from the malts. Being a bit of a hop head I might add a small late EKG addition next time.

I would mash at the high end of the range next time to try to maximize body because I think it needs more, though this may develop with more conditioning time.

More updates to follow as it conditions.
 
Andy,
Thanks for the follow-up. What about the kegged version (which you can adjust to 2.2 vol?) Have you tried it yet? Ed
:mug:
I actually haven't tried the keg version yet; it was something of a spontaneous decision to open a bottle last night as we were standing right next to a cupboard full of them and you know how temptation is... I'll try the keg next week.
 
Tried the keg (multiple times, ahem). It's really great, as good as any commercial dark ale of similar character that I've had before. I'll do this one again for sure and WLP028 goes right to the top of my yeast list.

:mug:

cheers.jpg
 
Andy,
That beer looks very tempting indeed, but very dark for an Export. I was wondering what you thought would be the flavor difference if you had brewed it without the two chocolate malts? I ran a slightly tweaked version of the recipe through Brewer's Friend minus those two malts (leaving in the Special B for its caramel flavor,) and here's what I get:

EnglishAndy's Scottish Ale 80/- Light

4.00 lb Maris Otter/Golden Promise 43.5 %
3.75 lb Munich 40.8 %
9 oz Oats, Flaked 6.1 %
5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 3.4 %
6 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L 4.1 %
3 oz Special B Malt 2.0 %

0.8 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.60 %] 60 mins 17.00 IBUs
0.8 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.60 %] 20 mins 10.3 IBUs

SRM: 10.89 (Morey) (yours was 25.3)
IBU: 27.3 (Tinseth)
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.012 (Imperial A31 Tartan Yeast @ 72%AA)

Thanks, Ed.
:mug:
 
Without the two dark malts the roasted notes would go away and I think the crystal would come to the fore, and I think you have rather a lot of it at 7.5%. I would reduce that to 5 or 6%. What do you think?

Keeping the Special B down to 2% or lower is, I think, sensible to prevent it overpowering everything else. My intention was for it to act as a 'spice', bringing a background hint rather than being the main event.

Beersmith's color preview (12.2 SRM) reminds me of Younger's Scotch Ale that I used to drink a bit of back in the 90's. McEwan's 80/- was darker and Younger's No.3 was almost black.

It looks like a very tasty variation to me!
 
Andy,
Thanks for the suggestions. Changed it up a bit to reduce C40 to 2oz (1.4%), C80 to 5oz (3.5%), Special B to 2oz (1.4%), and bumped the Munich to 3.88lbs to keep OG at 1.047. I'm hoping the higher amount of C80 will impart a more toasty flavor (I can also go to C120,) and reducing the C40 to keep it from being cloying. Hopefully, the 1.4% of the Special B will complement the biscuity/breadiness of the MO/GP (I'll probably use GP b/c that's what I have.) I'm hoping to get a full, malt forward version of yours, only lighter. If it's still a little too sweet, I can always up the bittering charge, or boil for 90. Ed :mug:
 
I think it looks great Ed, I'd love to hear how it turns out if you decide to brew it.
 
Just another quick update now the keg has gone and only the bottles remain. I don't know how it happens but I always get a more mellow taste in the keg and more bitterness from the bottles. It seems the hop oils survive for longer in bottles.

Anyway, still loving it but next time I'm going to reduce the IBUs to about 20 and swap out the 20 minute addition for a Styrian Golding. So it'll probably be 20g EKG at 60 and 25g Styrian Goldings at 15. I think this will help with the balance and allow the malts to shine through as much in the bottles as they did in the keg.
 
Just another quick update now the keg has gone and only the bottles remain. I don't know how it happens but I always get a more mellow taste in the keg and more bitterness from the bottles. It seems the hop oils survive for longer in bottles.

Anyway, still loving it but next time I'm going to reduce the IBUs to about 20 and swap out the 20 minute addition for a Styrian Golding. So it'll probably be 20g EKG at 60 and 25g Styrian Goldings at 15. I think this will help with the balance and allow the malts to shine through as much in the bottles as they did in the keg.
Andy,
That's an interesting observation and plan. I have two thoughts. One, if you reduce the IBUs for the bottled version, what will be the effect on the kegged version? Two, I'd think your 15 minute charge is really more a flavoring addition than a bittering one, so by changing the type of hop on the 15 minute charge (assuming similar AA%,) won't you essentially have the same thing with only a flavor variation? I agree that the switch from EKG to Styrian (or Fuggles) might help mellow the flavor a little, or maybe add just the right amount of "earthy-spiciness." All in all, if the changes make the kegged version even maltier (without being overly sweet,) as well as debitter your bottled version, this would be a really nice adjustment. I've got almost everything I need to make mine, but I'm waiting on space as I have a Blonde kegged and Coconut Chocolate Stout ready to keg. Ed
:mug:
 
Andy,
Fermentation is complete and after cold crashing for a week, I kegged/bottled mine. I finished with 22 qts of beer, so I kegged 5 gallons, and bottled 2L in a fliptop bottle with 0.3oz table sugar to prime. As you can see from the picture, it's quite a bit lighter than yours. The hydro sample tasted very good, balanced but a little less malty than I had hoped. Maybe after it has time to condition, the maltiness will shine through better. The stats on the beer were:
OG: 1.048
FG: 1.009
ABV:5.2%
IBU: 22.7
SRM: 9.43
Thanks for the inspiration for a really great recipe. Ed
:mug:

Ale.jpg
 
Looks great Ed and it's always a good sign when the sample tastes good because it only gets better over time. All my bottles are now gone, the last one being finished about two weeks ago. Towards the end the roasted notes all but faded away and one of my friends commented on a 'liquorice' flavor in there and how it tasted 'like Old Peculiar but with less alcohol'. I'll do it again in winter but for now I've got a batch of my version of the famous Centennial Blonde to get through!
 
Back
Top