Controlling Attenuation Through Mash Times - Page 3 - Home Brew Forums
Register Now For Free!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Controlling Attenuation Through Mash Times

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-25-2013, 11:13 PM   #21
catdaddy66
 
catdaddy66's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Jan 2011
Lugoff, SC
Posts: 1,830
Liked 288 Times on 235 Posts


Subscribed! Need this info as I begin the All Grain Odyssey!

 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 12:27 AM   #22
CA_Mouse
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
 
CA_Mouse's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Jan 2013
Riverside, Califiornia
Posts: 1,947
Liked 305 Times on 254 Posts


I have begun doing my mashes for longer times after reading this and a comment from Denny about mashing for 90 mins @ 148F for a drier Belgian. I have started adjusting my times to 75 mins for some of my drier stouts and lowering the mash temp slightly, everyone loves them. I use shorter times and higher temps for Pales and anything that needs to be a bit sweeter.

Mouse

 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 12:55 AM   #23
grathan
Recipes 
 
Jul 2010
Albany, NY
Posts: 2,250
Liked 146 Times on 115 Posts


I wonder if a temperature drop is responsible for drier beer. The higher mash temp breaks the protein down for the lower temp amylase. So when it reaches the lower temps they have a feeding frenzy on the already broken down protein chains.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2013, 05:02 PM   #24
JohnEvens
Recipes 
 
May 2013
Posts: 2

I have recently started brewing all grain. I am about 5 brews in. At first my efficiency wasn't that great, but now I am hitting 70-75% efficiency. I am now also having a problem with over attenuation.

I have been doing 60 min mashes at about 150F, but to get the improvement in efficiency I have been doing quite slow fly sparges. Although my sparge water is about 180F, I feel like the grain temp doesn't really increase as the addition rate is slow and with the lid being opened often I think any additional temperature is lost. I don't do a mash out step.

So, I feel like my sparge is basically an extension of the mash at about the same temp. It takes at least 30 mins to complete the sparge.

Any tips on what to do?
Add a mash out to get the temp up?
reduce the mash time?

The other issue is that I have designed my last few recipes thinking that my efficiency wouldn't be that great, so maybe if I design them with the right efficiency, the ratio of base malt to specialty malts will be different and I will get a higher finishing gravity?

 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2013, 05:18 PM   #25
Hermit
Recipes 
 
Nov 2009
Alternate Universe
Posts: 2,281
Liked 72 Times on 61 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEvens View Post
I have recently started brewing all grain. I am about 5 brews in. At first my efficiency wasn't that great, but now I am hitting 70-75% efficiency. I am now also having a problem with over attenuation.

I have been doing 60 min mashes at about 150F, but to get the improvement in efficiency I have been doing quite slow fly sparges. Although my sparge water is about 180F, I feel like the grain temp doesn't really increase as the addition rate is slow and with the lid being opened often I think any additional temperature is lost. I don't do a mash out step.

So, I feel like my sparge is basically an extension of the mash at about the same temp. It takes at least 30 mins to complete the sparge.

Any tips on what to do?
Add a mash out to get the temp up?
reduce the mash time?

The other issue is that I have designed my last few recipes thinking that my efficiency wouldn't be that great, so maybe if I design them with the right efficiency, the ratio of base malt to specialty malts will be different and I will get a higher finishing gravity?
150 will give you a highly fermentable wort to start with. You could try a yeast with lower attenuation. Also, if you don't raise the grain bed to 168/170 before you start sparging then the stuff drained to the kettle will continue to 'mash'. I've been thinking of just adding my non-fermentables 'up front' depending on the recipe. Some with high levels of crystal will have a lot of non fermentables anyhow. Perhaps a bit of dextrin malt for those without a lot of other non-fermentables?

 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 12:29 PM   #26
jmf143
Recipes 
 
May 2010
Wixom, Michigan
Posts: 609
Liked 22 Times on 20 Posts


In addition to mash duration having an effect on fermentability / attenuation, one needs to take mash thickness into consideration.
Thin Mash (>2qts/lb)
- increases fermentability
- increases attenuatioin
- increases the time it takes for conversion

Thick Mash (< 1.25qts/lb)
- decreases fermentability
- increases body
- can do "bigger" beers as more grain fits in mash tun
- can sparge with more water which may increase efficiency
__________________
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur

2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 03:24 AM   #27
ArcLight
Recipes 
 
May 2011
Millburn, NJ
Posts: 1,385
Liked 126 Times on 96 Posts


Where did you read that it's beneficial to introduce O2 during the mash?
Can you site some sources or papers?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lamarguy View Post
Upstream (prior to pitching yeast) oxygen exposure has been over-hyped and shown to not be a problem in practice. This includes hot side aeration.

In fact, some argue that upstream oxidation is actually beneficial to beer flavor stability because the oxidized compounds are created earlier (rather than later) and removed as part of the hot/cold break and any remaining compounds are consumed by the yeast.

Consider Budweiser - they force sterile air through the wort after the boil is complete to remove undesirable volatile compounds (e.g., DMS, SMM, etc.). Clearly, this creates oxidation.

You should only worry about downstream (after the yeast is pitched) oxygen exposure to ensure good long term beer flavor stability.

bmurrs Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 10:41 AM   #28
LovesIPA
Recipes 
 
May 2012
Sacramento, CA
Posts: 1,518
Liked 205 Times on 154 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcLight View Post
Where did you read that it's beneficial to introduce O2 during the mash?
Can you site some sources or papers?
Where did he say that it was beneficial to introduce O2 during the mash?

 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 12:14 PM   #29
chad_
Recipes 
 
Jun 2013
Posts: 114
Liked 10 Times on 8 Posts


I have a couple questions. First is there any down sides to doing a longer mash and having the mash temp drop below 148 F?

Secondly,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmf143 View Post
Thin Mash (>2qts/lb)
- increases fermentability
- increases attenuatioin
- increases the time it takes for conversion

Thick Mash (< 1.25qts/lb)
- decreases fermentability
- increases body
- can do "bigger" beers as more grain fits in mash tun
- can sparge with more water which may increase efficiency
I see how these would affect the beer in the ways you stated, but how could you achieve the same O.G. with both these methods? I feel like you will always have a greater O.G. with the thick mash. Would you have to boil the thin mash longer to achieve the O.G., but wouldnt this also affect the fermentability?

Thanks,
Chad
__________________
Pimary #1: Trippel
Primary #2: Summer Berliner Weisse
Primary #3: Belgian Quad
Souring: Sour Red, Sour White, Sour Black, Saison brett, Farmhouse Saison
Bottled: Saison, Nelson saison, Sour Brett Saison
Waiting: Dubbel, Belma Pale, Dark Saison

 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 12:32 PM   #30
ArcLight
Recipes 
 
May 2011
Millburn, NJ
Posts: 1,385
Liked 126 Times on 96 Posts


Chad,
If you compare two batches, batch 1 is mashed at 148 for 180 minutes, while batch 2 is mashed at 156 for 60 minutes, batch 1 will be more fermentable and reach a lower final gravity. But they may both have the same original gravity, assuming the alpha amylase has time to break the long chain molecules. Since Alpha Amylase is slower acting below it's optimum temperature, it may take longer (thus I made up 180 minutes).


The "downside" of the lower mash is a thinner beer as more alcohol is produced as there is more the yeast can digest. That may or may not be what you are after.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chad_ View Post
I have a couple questions. First is there any down sides to doing a longer mash and having the mash temp drop below 148 F?

Secondly,



I see how these would affect the beer in the ways you stated, but how could you achieve the same O.G. with both these methods? I feel like you will always have a greater O.G. with the thick mash. Would you have to boil the thin mash longer to achieve the O.G., but wouldnt this also affect the fermentability?

Thanks,
Chad

 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mash times? hopsoda General Techniques 17 11-27-2014 07:18 AM
Mash Times smarek82 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 19 05-07-2009 08:24 PM
Mash Times? hopdawg All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 4 03-01-2009 09:00 AM
Mash Temps/Times Kayos All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 10-23-2007 06:58 AM
Have you experimented with Mash Times? Monk All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 09-19-2007 08:53 PM


Forum Jump