Freshy Extra Pale w/ Citra Assistance Welcome

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Ashevillain

Level 3 Potions Master
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This is my first AG and first time using BrewSmith. Doing no sparge BIAB in my 15gal BK that is insulated with reflectix and wrapped with a sleeping bag. I estimated my efficiency a little low for my first no sparge batch, not sure if I went too low in the estimate. I will be building from RO, so should have reliable data on additions/ph adjustment, but have no PH meter and any advice in general is more than welcome. The hop additions are a little wonky due to me being new to BrewSmith and not feeling the IBU estimates were looking quite right, but basically there are small 5min/flamout additions with a significant whirlpool below 180. Any suggestions on time for whirlpool and how long should i keep the 5min/flameout additions in the wort before removing are welcome.

Any advice regarding volumes for a ~5gal batch is helpful as well.

Recipe: Freshy Extra Pale
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (0.0)

Desired mouthfeel: relatively dry, crisp backbone, being a vehicle for juicy round refreshing hop flavor
Desired aroma/flavor: potent fruitiness from the citra with very little bitterness
Desired appearance: extremely pale (would love to be light straw closer to pale white and clear)


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.99 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.99 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 4.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 68.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.02 gal Distilled Water Water 1 -
12 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 100.0 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 3 9.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 4 14.0 IBUs
6.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 1.0 m Hop 5 5.5 IBUs
2.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 6 -
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.5 Days Hop 7 0.0 IBUs
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.5 Days Hop 8 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 31.47 qt of water at 157.9 F 152.0 F 60 min (Real target is 150F, but using BK with reflectix, trying to give some padding for losses)
 
I would get a water spreadsheet like B'run water and find out about building the water (from distilled, it is very easy.

For your first (and well constructed) description of mouthfeel, you will need a proper sulfate/chloride ratio.

Curious about the need for two packs of yeast though. That OG should do fine with one. If you are worried about pitch rate, you may want to make a starter - a lot cheaper in the long run.
 
Thanks @Redlantern I will check out b'run water, and the plan was to do a 3:1 ratio I believe. The book i've been reading by Mike Karnowski suggests trying out:

65ppm Calcium
18ppm Magnesium
164ppm Sulfate
58ppm Chloride

This is a treatment used not on RO, but on water that is basically devoid of minerals. Apparently the water hes referring to is asheville water, which I'm pretty stoked about. But I would like to try RO for my first batch, then use cheap convenient asheville city tap water for my next batch with the same or similar treatment.

Either way i'm going to check out B'run water now, i've seen it referred everywhere but haven't taken the chance to look at it.

I will likely make a starter with a single pack of WLP001 thats been in my fridge for about ~3months.
 
Dry hopping with 8oz will soak quite a bit of your beer. You won't be bottling 5.25 gallons for sure. Along with your regular trub, you'll lose at least a gallon in the fermenter.

Also, Citra is a very potent hop. You may ge going overboard with 8oz. I do like IPAs and Citra is a favourite hop of mine but I'd rather go with 4-5oz max. Or mix it up with some Cascade and/or Amarillo.

With respect to whirlpooling, I usually go for 60' starting at 170F. 6oz will also soak a decent amount of wort, so you may want to reconsider your volumes.
 
I'm looking for some serious juiciness, but not to the point where it takes away from the refreshing simplicity. I'll rework the volumes for losses, instead trying to get around 6~gal into my bucket, and also kick down the whirlpool/dry hops to 4whirl 3dry 3dry.

The only reason I would want to lower the levels is if i'm going to get an unexpected cloying power, which i could imagine but have never experienced with citra before. Cascade/amarillo/centennial would definitely all be great pairings, ill consider that.

What do you think about the boil additions though? Will these small late additions leave my beer feeling not full bodied? I'm really not interested in bitterness unless fully excluding it will detract from the beer.

Great feedback thanks.
 
Trying to interpret what you are doing, it looks like you are after a beer with under 30 IBU. If you want fewer IBU's, adjust accordingly.

If that is correct, get about 20 IBU's at 20 min with Mosaic, the remaining 10 at flameout with Citra. From there, chill the wort to under 170°F so the Alpha Acids do not isomerize. put in a 3:1 Citra/Mosaic hopstand and allow to steep for 20 min. Dry hop for 5 days with the same. That combo is really nice.

If you want to get brave and want to give something a go - use Chinook in the hopstand and the dryhop - 3:1:1 Citra/Mosaic/Chinook. Surprisingly, this does not make the harsh bitterness one might think. In my experience, it adds a wonderful pineapple flavor aroma that goes well with a fruity offering.
 
I feel so much variance in my perception of hops like mosaic, for example i've had extremely well blended strictly fruity beers that were simcoe eldorado mosiac, but 90% of the time mosaic is too heavy for me when used to achieve this style, which is that awesome pineapple flavor coincidentally.

Not sure if its my perception or variance in crops/ratios but i think im going to try citra with some cascade to balance it...

I really like the advice of adding whirl below 170 so the hops dont isomerize. Freshy Recipe V2 incoming.
 
I feel so much variance in my perception of hops like mosaic, for example i've had extremely well blended strictly fruity beers that were simcoe eldorado mosiac, but 90% of the time mosaic is too heavy for me when used to achieve this style, which is that awesome pineapple flavor coincidentally.

Not sure if its my perception or variance in crops/ratios but i think im going to try citra with some cascade to balance it...

I really like the advice of adding whirl below 170 so the hops dont isomerize. Freshy Recipe V2 incoming.


Based on what you said, Cascade is a great choice. So is Centennial

Look into Idaho 7 (I think now it is 007) the tangerine/black tea will go well with Citra. Replace aforementioned Mosaic with 007.
 
Here is V2 so far. I know that the IBU's for between end of boil and whirlpool aren't easy to estimate... But should there be enough to get roughly 30IBUs with these late boil/flameout additions considering the time it will take to drop to 170?


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.51 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.51 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 4.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 31.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 67.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.02 gal Distilled Water Water 1 -
13 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 100.0 %
0.75 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 3 12.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 4 5.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 5 12.7 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 m Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
2.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 7 -
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.5 Days Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.5 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
2.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.5 Days Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.5 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs

Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 34.00 qt of water at 158.1 F 152.0 F 60 min
 
That’s a lot of citra hops.
If you have not brewed it yet, I would cut those with another hop as others have said.. Any traditional NE IPA hop will probably give you what you are looking for.
007, Galaxy, Vic Secret, Centennial, Amarillo, etc, would all be good, (and there are plenty of others)
 
So i ended up having to modify this significantly due to availability of citra hops onbrew day. Suprise haha. I did citra cascade amarillo with a lot of 1:1:1 ratios but citra took the front seat. And it was amazing until i decided to dry hop a 3rd time to "refresh the juiciness", then it was still pretty good but more traditional hop flavor/feel. There is definitely ibus picked up through dry hopping, and theres definitely a threshold between maximizing hop oil content and gaining ibus. It turned out like a neipa which was unexpected with 100%2row. I will link the recipe once i copy it to beersmith. This one smelled up the house, it had layers or tartness and round juiciness. Main fruit flavors were pinapple mango grapefruit.

image.jpg
 
Heres another. Whipped cream head, would love ve to know why this happened to repeat.

Thanks for the pictures, beer looks delicious, I can almost smell it!

Citra/Cascade/Amarillo is one of my favourite combos.

To answer your question about that creamy head - it's the hops. The more you add, the better head you end up with.
 
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