What's your preferred mash pH target?

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Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
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And does your preferred target mash pH change by style?

What mash pH range will you accept before resorting to adjustment?
 
5.4 for pales & IPAs, 5.3 for cream ales & lagers. As long as it falls in the 5.2-5.6 range (for me 99.99% of the time) I simply note the discrepancy & adjust on the next similar brew.
 
Shoot for a pH of 5.2-5.6, however let your sample get down to room temp before testing.
 
I shoot for 5.4 typically, that gives me an error of .1 either way that I feel I don't have to stress about. I'm at the point with adjusting water for mash ph where I'm trying to get a consistent result across multiple grain bills.
 
5.4. Maybe scooch it a little lower for things like Pilsner lager/patersbier/Hefeweizen, a little higher for stouts/porters, but 5.4 is a perfect happy medium.
 
What have any of you discovered in regard to a correlation between mash pH and brewhouse efficiency? Is there a correlation here?

And is there a correlation between mash pH and perceived maltiness or mouth feel (body)?
 
Well, getting pH into the correct range does impact efficiency positively, but I can't say too much about the effects on mouthfeel and body except to the extent the flavor ions, sodium, chloride and sulfate affect those attributes AND pH.
 
From everything I've read, the pH of the mash at mash temps should be 5.2 - 5.4. When cooled to ambient temps, this translates to a measurement of roughly 5.4-5.6.

So I aim for a cooled, ambient temp reading of 5.35-5.4 for my paler beers, and 5.5-5.55 for my darker beers (typically stouts).
 
I'm afraid to put my pH meter into 152 degree wort, so I always cool down a sample. Should I be concerned about doing this? By the time I get it cooled down and tested I'm so far down the road to mash completion that my adjustments are likely not amounting to much. If I could take direct pH readings at 152 degrees my adjustments would be added much sooner.
 
I measure mine directly. Just remember that reads low by about 0.2 at mash temperatures. The experts say that this can shorten the life of the gauge. I don't believe them. Also gauges are cheap these days, around $15 on Amazon, that's where I got mine. If you have a fancy $100 model then you might not want to wreck it... or you might just want to test a cheaper model and see how it compares! Should be right on the money if properly calibrated.
 
I'm afraid to put my pH meter into 152 degree wort, so I always cool down a sample. Should I be concerned about doing this? By the time I get it cooled down and tested I'm so far down the road to mash completion that my adjustments are likely not amounting to much. If I could take direct pH readings at 152 degrees my adjustments would be added much sooner.

A quick way to cool down a sample is to have 3 or 4 shot glasses in the freezer. Collect your sample and then pour your sample from one shot glass to the next. I did this last week and it cooled my sample down quickly. I've got thick shot glasses so I'm not too concerned about having one crack but I guess this could happen.

I have never adjusted my mash water on the fly. I just note what the pH is and then make adjustments for future beers.
 
If you do want to cool some wort to measure at STP, I'll bet it would cool fastest by ladeling some onto a dinner plate, let cool for like 5 minutes at room temp or in the fridge, then pour into a shot glass. Surface area, baby. I might have to try this on my next batch.
 
5.2 for all beers

This 'one size fits all' is incorrect.

A big, roasty stout will be tasty at 5.4-5.5, maybe even bump it to 5.6 if there's a lot of roasted malt.

It will be a sharp acrid mess at 5.2.

PH is a flavor tool when kept in the correct range, much like brewing salts. And, much like brewing salts, there's no 'one size fits all' answer.
 
This 'one size fits all' is incorrect.



A big, roasty stout will be tasty at 5.4-5.5, maybe even bump it to 5.6 if there's a lot of roasted malt.



It will be a sharp acrid mess at 5.2.



PH is a flavor tool when kept in the correct range, much like brewing salts. And, much like brewing salts, there's no 'one size fits all' answer.


I use 5.2 for all beers, roast or otherwise with zero issues. So, for me, it IS one size fits all.
 
*shrug*

Whatever works for you. Just stop telling everyone that your way is the only way and making broad statements. That sort of thing can confuse some of the newer brewers.
 
*shrug*

Whatever works for you. Just stop telling everyone that your way is the only way and making broad statements. That sort of thing can confuse some of the newer brewers.


The question was, "What is YOUR preferred mash pH target?"

My response was, "5.2 for all beers"

How is that telling someone my way is the only way? The OP solicited opinions and I gave mine. I don't think what I said was confusing at all.
 
You may want to refer to Brun Water's web page.

Here's an excerpt:
Its notable from the graphic that the various enzymes work well across a range of pH. Therefore, targeting an exact mash pH is not critical to success. Achieving a mash pH that is within a tenth or two of the desired target can produce acceptable results. General suggestions for mashing pH targets are provided in the table below. As can be seen in the table, mashing pH has multiple impacts and the brewer can tailor the pH to enhance certain goals. Be aware that other factors beyond pH can affect character. The pH only helps achieve that character.


Suggested Mashing pH Targets (room-temp measurement)
Character
Target Mash pH Range

More fermentable wort with less body 5.3 to 5.4

Less fermentable wort with more body 5.4 to 5.5

More sharpness or tartness in beer 5.1 to 5.2

Lighter-colored beers 5.3 to 5.4

Darker-colored beers 5.4 to 5.6

Hop-focused beers 5.3 to 5.5

Malt-focused beers 5.2 to 5.3

My apologies to Martin if using this snippet is off limits.
 
I'd much rather work from my own experiences. In my experience, the same stout brewed with a mash PH of 5.3 had a harsh, bitter roasted malt flavor. It was a bit acrid, thin in mouthfeel and unpleasant to drink. The same beer, re-brewed with a mash PH target of 5.5 possessed a more rounded, smoother roast profile. It was a much more pleasant drinking experience.

I quoted Martin Brungard's work because it falls in line with what my experiences have shown me.

Some of the things highlighted in Kunze's work above have not proved out in any real-world brewing (both home scale and production) that I have ever witnessed. Extract yield in functionally the same as long as the PH is within the acceptable range. There was no perceptible difference in lautering. The flavor being mellower, fuller and softer? Not in my experience. Lower mash pH tends to be sharper, with a thinner mouthfeel. I've never had a measurable difference in attenuation, either. Case in point? The stout above. Original and Final gravity was the same in both beers despite the mash PH being different by .2.

The only issue I have with your post is you are promoting information that has been proven incorrect. Doesn't upset me in the slightest but I felt that anyone stumbling into this post that doesn't know better might be led astray by blanket statements.
 
I'd much rather work from my own experiences. In my experience, the same stout brewed with a mash PH of 5.3 had a harsh, bitter roasted malt flavor. It was a bit acrid, thin in mouthfeel and unpleasant to drink. The same beer, re-brewed with a mash PH target of 5.5 possessed a more rounded, smoother roast profile. It was a much more pleasant drinking experience.

I quoted Martin Brungard's work because it falls in line with what my experiences have shown me.

Some of the things highlighted in Kunze's work above have not proved out in any real-world brewing (both home scale and production) that I have ever witnessed. Extract yield in functionally the same as long as the PH is within the acceptable range. There was no perceptible difference in lautering. The flavor being mellower, fuller and softer? Not in my experience. Lower mash pH tends to be sharper, with a thinner mouthfeel. I've never had a measurable difference in attenuation, either. Case in point? The stout above. Original and Final gravity was the same in both beers despite the mash PH being different by .2.

The only issue I have with your post is you are promoting information that has been proven incorrect. Doesn't upset me in the slightest but I felt that anyone stumbling into this post that doesn't know better might be led astray by blanket statements.


What information might that be that is incorrect? The pH ranges taught to professional and amateur Brewers alike all over the world? If you think that the elements of brewing science and technique found in Kunze's work are inaccurate, I can't help you.

I'll tell you this much, if you need to raise your pH to avoid an acrid, thin and all together unpleasant beer, then you are treating the symptoms rather than the problem.

I've produced Stouts that were a joy to drink using 5.2. Has my anecdotal statement proven incorrect?

And another thing: the OP obviously isn't a new Brewer. Do you know how I know? Because we've been on some of the same posts talking about trying to apply the non-linear equations for estimating mash pH.

He asked an opinion and I gave it.

Here is a good one:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526566
 
Did you even read what I wrote? I explained what my own experiences have shown to be different than the bit of Kunze's writing that you posted.

Just because something's printed in a book it doesn't mean that it's irrefutable. The wonder of science is that theories get scrapped all the time when empirical evidence shows otherwise.

I never said that the 'pH ranges' were wrong. I stated that always targeting 5.2 was not the way to go.

As far as adjusting pH to change the flavor profile of a beer being 'treating the symptoms' instead of finding the problem? The problem *was* the pH.

You may enjoy your roasty beers mashed at 5.2 Wonderful! I'm glad you enjoy the fruit of your labors.

You're missing out on a range of flavor and mouthfeel adjustment by locking yourself to 5.2 all the time, despite what your favorite book may claim.

*shrug*

Suit yourself. I've stated my piece and we've derailed this thread enough.
 
The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.


You know Dave, normally I think you're a bright guy, and occasionally a damn genius. Sometimes I kick myself right in my own ass for bickering on forums.
 
Is Kunze's 5.2 cited at room temp or at mash temp...? If it's mash temp, then he's actually saying that 5.4 is ideal. I don't see it mentioned in the quoted text, but it's probably somewhere else in the book.
 
Is Kunze's 5.2 cited at room temp or at mash temp...? If it's mash temp, then he's actually saying that 5.4 is ideal. I don't see it mentioned in the quoted text, but it's probably somewhere else in the book.


Room temperature - 70 °F
 
Room temperature - 70 °F

I'd actually argue that unless you can cite the place where he says it's supposed to be room temp, that he is actually referring to mash temps. That was part of the problem until a few years ago, was that "5.2" was the quoted number but no one seemed to know (or indicate) whether that was at mash temps or room temp. I believe AJ, Kai, and others determined that all of the cited "5.2" references were for mash temps (which makes sense, since you're trying to target a specific environment for the mash itself you would expect the numbers to be relative to that mash).

If you're saying that he denotes that his 5.2 recommendation is at room temp, well then I can definitely second Bishop's concern that this is incorrect information. That would mean a mash pH of 5.0, which as we all know is quite low. I can't see any "brewing scientist" not knowing this, or recommending such a low range as the de facto standard.
 
I'd actually argue that unless you can cite the place where he says it's supposed to be room temp, that he is actually referring to mash temps. That was part of the problem until a few years ago, was that "5.2" was the quoted number but no one seemed to know (or indicate) whether that was at mash temps or room temp. I believe AJ, Kai, and others determined that all of the cited "5.2" references were for mash temps (which makes sense, since you're trying to target a specific environment for the mash itself you would expect the numbers to be relative to that mash).



If you're saying that he denotes that his 5.2 recommendation is at room temp, well then I can definitely second Bishop's concern that this is incorrect information. That would mean a mash pH of 5.0, which as we all know is quite low. I can't see any "brewing scientist" not knowing this, or recommending such a low range as the de facto standard.


All pH optima are reported as room temp. So it's 5.2 at room temp and 5.4 ish at mash temp, not the other way around.

Kai's posts on this topic support my statement.
 
All pH optima are reported as room temp. So it's 5.2 at room temp and 5.4 ish at mash temp, not the other way around.

Kai's posts on this topic support my statement.


Completely 100% false.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling for argument's sake or if you're serious, but please stop posting bad information in here and treating it as fact.

As the temperature increases in water, there's an increase in its ability to ionize and so the concentration of H+ in solution will increase, and hence the pH will drop, not rise.

There is no way you can sit here and tell us any different. And for the record, "Kai's posts on this topic" certainly DO NOT support your statement. Here's a direct quote, emphasis added (taken from http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/02/about-ph-targets-and-temperature/):

John Palmer’s 1st edition of “How to Brew” states this:
“When you mash 100% base malt grist with distilled water, you will usually get a mash pH between 5.7-5.8. (Remember, the target is 5.1-5.5 pH.)”

In this sentence he mixes room temp and mash temp pH values. The 5.7-5.8 base malt pH is correct when seen as the pH of a room temperature mash sample while the 5.1-5.5 pH target is only correct when seen as a mash temp pH target with a conversion factor of 0.35. With the correction the room temp sample pH target range is 5.45 – 5.85, which is more correct.

This is not a disputed theory, this is hard scientific fact - the pH of a mash sample will rise as the temperature lowers.

And further down in the same post, he mentions the ideal range based on beer style:
And to answer the question that is most interesting to brewers, I believe that the optimal mash pH range is 5.3-5.5 for light beers and 5.4-5.6 for darker beers when testing a room temperature sample of the mash.

So it just seems you are incorrect all around.
 
Completely 100% false.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling for argument's sake or if you're serious, but please stop posting bad information in here and treating it as fact.

As the temperature increases in water, there's an increase in its ability to ionize and so the concentration of H+ in solution will increase, and hence the pH will drop, not rise.

There is no way you can sit here and tell us any different. And for the record, "Kai's posts on this topic" certainly DO NOT support your statement. Here's a direct quote, emphasis added (taken from http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/02/about-ph-targets-and-temperature/):



This is not a disputed theory, this is hard scientific fact - the pH of a mash sample will rise as the temperature lowers.

And further down in the same post, he mentions the ideal range based on beer style:


So it just seems you are incorrect all around.


Take it easy on me! Jeez.

I misinterpreted some of the same sources you quoted. I'm not trolling anybody.

I'm not stationary right now but let me review some stuff and post a non-rushed cohesive response.
 
I've got to admit, this mash pH vs. temperature stuff is friggin confusing, and I myself got it backwards for a minute.....

pH should always be measured at room temperature. That's a fact. I'm not going to cite sources, go look it up yourself.

Mash pH is optimal for most beer styles somewhere around 5.2-5.4, the exact amount debatable but it's in that range.... and this is at room temperature. That's a fact, again, go find the sources yourself.

Mash pH if measured at mash temperatures around 150 F will be 0.2 lower. So that same range falls to 5.0-5.2. This is my understanding based on stuff I've read from Kaiser and Gordon Strong on the AHA forum. Go look it up yourself, I'm lazy. The 0.35 reported by some sources is not correct. It's more like 0.2 per Kai and Strong.

So, RPIScotty got it backwards. And so did I, for a minute. But I think I've got it square now.

Meanwhile, Matt's discussion about subtracting 0.35 from 5.7-5.8 or whatever is a total misapplication of facts. Mash pH of a 100% base malt in distilled water measured at room temperature will in fact be around 5.8. This was reported by Ray Daniels in Designing Great Beers. I don't have a copy sitting right here in front of me, but I do have a somewhat photographic memory. So again, go look it up yourself. Specialty malts will have a tendency to bring mash pH down by around 0.3 with 10% of the grist and 0.5 at 20% of the grist. Source is Daniels again, go look it up.

All the while, I must be some kind of idiot because I choose to measure mash pH at 150 F instead of room temperature. I need to run some more experiments to see what the real differences are, haven't done that yet, but I will, eventually.

So again, like I said earlier.....

We are all idiots.
 
The 0.35 reported by some sources is not correct. It's more like 0.2 per Kai and Strong.

So, RPIScotty got it backwards. And so did I, for a minute. But I think I've got it square now.

Meanwhile, Matt's discussion about subtracting 0.35 from 5.7-5.8 or whatever is a total misapplication of facts.

I think you failed to realize that the quotes I posted are quotes from Kai himself, on his own website. Kai says 0.35, not me. Personally I find it closer to 0.25-0.30.

And it's not a misapplication of facts - it's the fact of the matter, according to Kai. In fact, Kai was referencing a quote from Palmer's book. Palmer stated that the "target mash pH" was 5.1-5.5, and Kai noted that this is true, but that's not the values you'd get if measuring at room temp (as you should be). If the "target mash pH" (at mash temps) is 5.1-5.5 as Palmer states, then Kai reasons the actual measured mash pH at room temp would be closer to 5.45-5.8.

Read the article I linked to (where these quote come from). It's quite informative.

pH should always be measured at room temperature. That's a fact. I'm not going to cite sources, go look it up yourself.
...
All the while, I must be some kind of idiot because I choose to measure mash pH at 150 F instead of room temperature. I need to run some more experiments to see what the real differences are, haven't done that yet, but I will, eventually.

So you're saying something is a fact, and telling us to look it up ourselves, but you yourself haven't even looked it up? How then can you claim you know this as fact?!?

But yes, it is a fact. It's not so much because of an error in the readings though, it's due to the longevity of the pH probe. The hotter mash temps will shorten the lifespan of the probe significantly. This equates to more money spent replacing them more frequently, and thus the reason for avoiding to do so.

And for future reference, if you're not going to do your own citations then not many people will pay attention to you. Anyone can say anything followed "look it up yourself". But I already did look it up myself, and I've already posted quotes saying otherwise by people who are far more knowledgeable than you or I on the subject. If it's between you and Kai, I'm sticking with him, no offense.
 
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