bavarian hefeweizen and mash/sparge PH

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motosapiens

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So i'm just learning about water chemistry, found out my water is somewhat alkaline (179ppm), and the results of adding some acid to the sparge and to the mash for lighter beers has been pretty dramatic in my normal ales and even stouts.

However, the one lighter beer that never had any issues with the alkalinity was bavarian hefeweizen, using 65% wheat malt. reading this excellent german magazine article sheds some light on why that might be. (see pertinent quote below). We have tasted them back to back against commercial german versions such as weihenstephan, paulaner, franziskaner, etc.... and found them to be pretty close to the same, only fresher.

So my question is what are other lovers of authentic hefeweizen doing? are you just ignoring the water spreadsheets and stuff that work so well with non-wheat beers? or should i acidify only the sparge water? or should I acidify the mash, but not until after the phenolic rest at 111*? Ideally, I think I should probably test all those things back to back, but I'm not excited about the idea of a batch of overacidified tart bland annoying beer if I can get closer on the first try.


Wheat beers tolerate a relatively large range in water profiles. Generally, residual alkalinities up to 10°dH (about 170ppm in american terms) are of no concern. The resulting higher mash pH should however be taken into account during the brewing process. The reasons for high tolerance of water profiles are:

Wheat beer yeasts generate a high pH drop during the fermentation resulting in a satisfactory beer pH even if the wort pH was unfavorable high.
Since wheat does not have husks the increased solution of polyphenols caused by a high mash pH is restricted to the barley.
Due to the style typical low hopping the increased hop utilization with increased pH, especially of less desirable compounds, does not create significant problems.
The higher cloudiness and reduced brightness as a result of higher pH is tolerable for this beer style. Higher turbidity of the post boil wort results however in lower contents of esters in the beer.
High salt contents can reduce the desired soft taste of the beer. Therefore, it is advisable to desalinate the water rather than using brewing salts to increase the mineral content. Considering the aforementioned reasons, a mash or wort acidification is normally not carried out. It has been observed that an acidified mash results in lower quality estery aromas [Her05]. Wort acidification 10 minutes before the end of boil can increase the phenolic and fresh character of the beer, according to Drexler (Weißbierbrauerei Schneider-Weisse).

Even though the brewing process tolerates a large range of residual alkalinities they should be taken into account. Possibilities to counteract the high residual alkalinities without water treatment are:

Dark malts, cara malt
Low hop additions
High percentage of wheat malts
Healthy, active yeast for a sufficient pH drop
 
With alkaline tap water, it is important to acidify both the mashing and sparging water. Getting both of those waters neutralized will make it easier for the yeast to bring the beer pH into a nice low range that enhances crispness.
 
With alkaline tap water, it is important to acidify both the mashing and sparging water. Getting both of those waters neutralized will make it easier for the yeast to bring the beer pH into a nice low range that enhances crispness.

I understand that is the case for normal beers, and I have already experienced the results in my stout and NEIPA of following your advice (which I appreciate), but what I quoted above, and my own tasting experience, seems to suggest that it's not so simple when brewing a bavarian hefeweizen, especially since 'crispness' is not really part of the style in my experience.

At this point I'm kind of leaning towards a slight acidification of sparge water (about half what i would do with a similarly colored all barley beer), and similar treatment of the mash after the phenolic rest, trying to keep the ph fairly high. then depending on how that works out, I may just do one without any treatment, and compare them.
 
I've had plenty of homebrewed Hefe's in competition and the primary fault I find in those beers is dull flavor. Getting the pH down is imperative. That article's recommendation for higher pH is focused on improving banana esters. That is never a goal of mine since I could easily get the beer to produce more banana via a higher ferment temp. I'm not seeing a lot of validity in that article. I suggest you also consult Warner's book on Weizen and Zanisheff's book on brewing classic styles.

A Ferullic rest somewhere in the high 100F to 113F range along with a ferment in the 62F to 64F range will produce a fine Hefe.
 
thanks for your insight, martin. After re-reading and re-thinking, I'm not sure the article recommended higher ph, so much as said it would be less of a problem than with other styles. I am just trying to not throw the baby out with the bathwater since my hef's were excellent before I learned about water, but the other styles were suffering in some respects.

the beer is currently fermenting at 62*, where we have had the best results in the past. I am also a big fan of the ferulic rest. I did kind of hedge my bets a little tho and not acidify quite to the same predicted ph levels as I would have with english ales, just since I know that even with *no* treatment, my water makes delicious and authentic hefeweizen. As a conservative, I don't want to go too far the other direction.

I very much appreciate your great patience with folks like me as we find our way in the brewing world. You've been worlds of help.
 
I Know this is an older post but I have just finished reading the same article as you and had the same thoughts.

I am curious to know how your beer turned out??

I am just looking at brewing a hefeweizen and I have very soft water. I have done minimal additions of CaSO and CaCL to bring my calcium up to the minimum level of 50ppm this balances out everything else very well but leaves me with bicarbonate level of 26ppm.

My grain bill is 59.6% wheat and 40.4% pilsner and without adding any acidification my pH estimate is 5.65

I will be mashing in at 43 degrees Celsius then raising slowly to 55 over 15min. and hold for 15min while I do a single decotion and bring it up to 67 and hold for 30 min until mashout.

So my pH is not overly high but I was wondering how yours turned out and what pH you had for your mash? I am very much in two minds as to add a little acid to lower the pH or just leave as is any advise would be very much appreciated .

Trent.
 
I Know this is an older post but I have just finished reading the same article as you and had the same thoughts.

I am curious to know how your beer turned out??

I am a bit of a hefeweizen snob. I lived in southern bavaria (Augsburg) for 6 years in the 80's, and developed a real taste for the authentic german style. I have found that most hefeweizens in america are not authentic, and not even very good. I would never order an american-brewed hefeweizen without tasting it first. As a result, I don't really trust most of what people in america say about any aspect of brewing hefeweizen, even really smart people like Martin (above).

With that out of the way, I found by doing 2 batches back to back that acidifying the mash and sparge the way I would a pale ale (following brunwater guidelines) results in a somewhat tart, sweet and weird beer. it was better than nothing, but not as good as my hefeweizens from before I started treating my water. The 2nd batch i did not treat the mash at all (I did not measure the ph, but predicted ph was over 6), and i used about half the lactic acid recommended by brunwater. In my opinion that version was much more authentic and tastier as well. My wife (who has finely tuned tastebuds from wine experience) agreed with me as well.

In your situation, I personally would not try to lower your mash ph.
 
Well with what you have just said from your experience I think I will leave everything as is and see what happens. Should be brewing this next week so I will find out soon enough how it turns out.

Thanks for the reply and information .

Trent.
 
Great thread. I've been brewing more or less the same hefe recipe 9 times since last september and only tweaked a little. I started pretty low with pH according to brunwater, and they have improved the higher I've gotten. Germans usually say that you should be somewhere around 5.4 to 5.6.

Also. It seems like they tart up a tad more when reusing yeast, but I believe im overpitching since I cant count cells at this point.
 
Be careful when reading about pH with hefes. There's a few curve balls. IE the ferulic acid rest should be carried out higher than mash pH... Same goes with decoction (carried out at higher pH than step).

Personally, I prefer distilled water with a tad of CaCl and 3% acid malt aiming for 5.4 mash pH. So that would be ferulic acid rest at 5.7 and then add acid malt at first step (I do hochkurz and it RAWKS on hefe). Acid malt is far more authentic that liquid acids or using Ca salts IMO. I might sounds like an a$$ but I think my hefe is better than most US craft. I hope to implement some LO2 tech on it like spunding and take it up a notch further. There are a few LO2 guys that regularly go to Germany and think their own beer is on par with the real deal and I believe them. Plus, with spunding, you are like 5 days grain to glass with hefe...
 
I had taken the effects of the acid rest and a decoction into account , that is why I was curious about not adjusting the pH as my understanding is that these steps will lower the pH also. There was also some talk in the article about the yeast lowering the pH of the wort during fermentation to the correct levels also. My understanding of a this is very limited still ( which can be dangerous :D ) but I guess I will only find out by actually having a go and seeing what the results are. Any of the knowledge or experience I can get from others on here is very much appreciated and very helpful in making a decision as to wether or not it is worth a try.

Trent.
 
Sounds like you are on the right track. The germans throw us alot of curve balls WRT pH. My personal interpretation of the article (which is awesome btw) is that the larger pH drop in hefe is the context of being compared to lagers since it is a german article.

While those steps will reduce pH, IMO acidification is still required. IE, Schneider's brewmaster in Warner's Wheat book does a schedule like you intend but sours in the kettle. Also, we all know that the yeast does lower pH but once again not sufficiently without the help of acid (sauergut traditionally). I think your pH targets are KO wort 5.2 or lower and final pH 4.5 or lower. Targeting a lower mash pH (5.4) with acid helps set things up later. The classic sign of amatuerish tasting homebrew is one where the final pH is above 4.5.

BTW the ferulic acid rest does NOT change pH much at all...
 
Ok thanks for the tips . I have some acid malt so I will keep it on hand and if my pH is looking to hi will add some in. Will see how it all goes.

Thanks again.
 
I'm a Bavarian Hefe fan. My ultimate example is Schneider Weisse. (calibration)
My experiments and regiment follows.

My water is pretty void of key compounds. Close to distilled. After brewing many batches, I have gravitated to Dunkel Weise and they have came out well. I think the crystal malts help drop the PH, along with a pound of Acidulated Malt (per 5g batch). The rest I leave up to good ferm practice.

One thing I have been dabbling with is a dense Grist to water ratio at mash in (120 deg target). My thinking is, the initial dense grist to water will draw more on the grain to lower PH. Didn't take a PH reading (lazy), but the beer came out well in style. After the dense mash protein rest, I step infuse up to my target mash temp.

I would think adding salts to sparge doesn't have much benefit, since the mashing is technically finished. It's a rinse at that point with temp being the key. Besides the grains will provide enough tannins.

That's my take. Cheers
 
Does a ferulic acid rest really drop pH?

Edit: I just looked through the last replies again and noticed someone also said that ferulic acid rest doesn't do much to the pH.
 
Be careful when reading about pH with hefes. There's a few curve balls. IE the ferulic acid rest should be carried out higher than mash pH... Same goes with decoction (carried out at higher pH than step).

Personally, I prefer distilled water with a tad of CaCl and 3% acid malt aiming for 5.4 mash pH. So that would be ferulic acid rest at 5.7 and then add acid malt at first step (I do hochkurz and it RAWKS on hefe). Acid malt is far more authentic that liquid acids or using Ca salts IMO. I might sounds like an a$$ but I think my hefe is better than most US craft. I hope to implement some LO2 tech on it like spunding and take it up a notch further. There are a few LO2 guys that regularly go to Germany and think their own beer is on par with the real deal and I believe them. Plus, with spunding, you are like 5 days grain to glass with hefe...

I used to keg my hefes but wasn't 100% happy with them. I'm still not, since I have to figure out my harvesting-techniques and repitching amount, without a microscope.

But. I went over to the germanbrewing forum and asked for advise. I was shot down when I said I was kegging them. Now I add speise directly to bottles when I've reached FG, after 24 hrs at 10C, to settle some yeast out. The head is AMAZING, It's frothy, pillowy and nothing like anything I've seen or experienced before. Fully carbed and pretty drinkable after about 8 days.

I set aside about 1.25L speise for a total 12L batch (packaged), and add about 55ml of speise into each 0.5L bottle.

But, after writing all this.. You maybe ment spunding in a pressure-fermentor? I thought you ment spunding on kegs when I started to write this..
 
I might sounds like an a$$ but I think my hefe is better than most US craft.

I don't think you sound like an ass. IMHO most US-made hefeweizens suck balls. I never order one without trying it first because most of them are pretty bleh.


So last year I fermented at 62 degrees, and was not that excited. This year I bumped up the temp to 67 and I like it alot better. In fact I'm thrilled with it. I have stuck to my previous plan of using about half or less of the amount of lactic acid that bru'nwater suggests for a non-hefeweizen.

I may try 65 degrees with the hef I'm brewing this afternoon and see what I think. that should create a little less of the banana esters, but even at 67 they're not overpowering. Very much on par with many commercial german beers, only fresher. fwiw, it's a simple recipe i use. 5 lbs wheat, 2 lbs pils, 2 lbs munich, dough-in at 111 for 20 mins then mash at 152, 5/8 oz of low alpha german hops at the start of the boil, ferment with weihenstephan yeast.
 
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