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Old 11-07-2008, 05:05 PM   #71
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that protein sludge on top of the mash is freakin' crazy! I love the chalk/iodine test, what a great idea.
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Old 11-07-2008, 05:25 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
This is the "workhorse" mash in German brewing today:

dough-in above 57C or directly at 62-63C
63C for 30 - 40 min (maltose rest)
(65 C for ~30 min if very high fermentability is desired)
68-72C for 20 - 60 min (dextrinization rest)
76-78C - mash-out.

The whole mash takes 90 - 120 min.

Kai
Thanks for that. In your experience, what is a typical water:grain ratio for a German brewery in a Pilsner or Helles?... and does it increase with the steps in the mash schedule?
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:09 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menschmaschine View Post
Thanks for that. In your experience, what is a typical water:grain ratio for a German brewery in a Pilsner or Helles?... and does it increase with the steps in the mash schedule?
4-5 l/kg (2-2.5 qt/lb) and it doesn't change during mashing as direct heat is used to move between the rests.

Kai

 
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:47 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
4-5 l/kg (2-2.5 qt/lb) and it doesn't change during mashing as direct heat is used to move between the rests.

Kai
Wow, that seems like a lot compared to what most homebrewers do, even when we do lagers. Is this common throughout German brewing, or do some regions/styles use a lower water:grain ratio?... like Alts or Bocks, for example.
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Old 11-07-2008, 11:26 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menschmaschine View Post
Wow, that seems like a lot compared to what most homebrewers do, even when we do lagers. Is this common throughout German brewing, or do some regions/styles use a lower water:grain ratio?... like Alts or Bocks, for example.
Yes this is a common ratio for lighter beers. The lower amount of sparge water will also reduce the amount of tannins extracted during sparge. For dark beers the mash tickness may be as low as 3 - 3.5 l/kg (1.5 to 1.75 l/kg) but not thicker as they become difficult to pump and stir.

The latter is the main historical reson for thin mashes in German brewing. B/c of decoction, German brewhouses had to be able to pump the mash as opposed to British brewhouses which mashed and lautered in the same vessel.

Early American home brewing adopted that Britsh style of brewing as it is ideal for the approach of having a single unheated vessel for mashing and lautering. Then craftbrewers adoped this b/c it is easy to build and it is what they did as home brewers. And home brewers keep doing it (the thick mashes I mean) b/c craft brewers do it and many home brewing texts say that the ideal mash thickness is around 1.25 qt/lb.

I gave been saying for a while that, at least for German beers, you should get away from this one-mash-fits all approach that Jamil and Co. are teaching. A thin mash, up to 4.5 l/kg as long as it fits in your MLT and works for the size of beer your are making, may work much better. They are more easy to stir and may even improve efficiency if your efficiency is limited by conversion efficienct (i.e. the % of starch that is converted).

Kai

 
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Old 11-08-2008, 12:34 AM   #76
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That's great info. Danke, Kai.
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Old 11-08-2008, 07:06 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
I gave been saying for a while that, at least for German beers, you should get away from this one-mash-fits all approach that Jamil and Co. are teaching. A thin mash, up to 4.5 l/kg as long as it fits in your MLT and works for the size of beer your are making, may work much better.
I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.

 
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Old 11-08-2008, 01:59 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr View Post
I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.
Not in my experience. I get about 80-83% attenuation potential in my Pilsner mashes and could get more if I wanted to. In addition to that, in mash experiments I have not seen an attenuation difference between thick and thin mashes. A Pils should be mashed at 2 qt/lb or slightly above if you can.

Kai

 
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Old 11-08-2008, 03:02 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr View Post
I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.
Actually, I understand the opposite to be true. (Not necessarily from experience, but from text.) A thick mash is supposed to produce the best overall extraction, but a thin mash favors maltose, and therefore attenuation.
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Old 11-08-2008, 03:37 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menschmaschine View Post
A thick mash is supposed to produce the best overall extraction, but a thin mash favors maltose, and therefore attenuation.
I heard different explanation - in thick mash b-amylase survives longer, so it can longer do the starch-cutting job.
This can be essential, my german pils I mashed 2.5 hours in 62-63*C, and didn't get full convertion, until I elevated temp to 68*C.

 
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