A couple RIMS element questions for an electric newbie

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obeahsf

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Hi all,

I am putting together an electric panel: 3 PIDs/3 burners - HLT, RIMS, Boil. Power is 240v, and I will be using 240v 550w elements in the HLT and Boil Kettle. I have a couple (potentially dumb) questions. I will likely use the Blichmann RIMS rocket which comes in 120v and 240v at a negligible price difference. I will also be powering 2 Chugger pumps.

1a/1b. For this 10 gallon setup, is there any reason I should run a 240v RIMS element rather than a 120v? Would 120v be fine to run from the 240v outlet?

2. Clearly I cannot run 2 elements at full power, but is it fine for the HLT (5500w) element to fire every now and then to hold temp, while mash recirc (this RIMS element) is active?

Thanks a ton!
 
Do you already have the RIMS rocket? If not, don't buy it. Instead build a HERMS coil into your HLT.
It will likely cost about $150 with all the dressings and you will be much more happy with it. It also doubles as a cooling coil if you add ice water in the HLT.

1. When it comes to voltage selection, choosing the higher voltage decreases the current required. This decreases the wiring gauge size, the plug size, relay size, SSR size, the breaker size, etc.
In other words, all supply equipment is cheaper.

2. You can certainly run any 2 elements at the same time is you have a 50A service. You can only run 1 at a time on a 30A service. You need to find out what you have available.
The Rims rocket is 3500W, HLT is 5500W, Total power is 9000W = 37.5A@240vac
BK + HLT = 11000W = 45.8A@240vac
 
I run my whole brewery on 1 30a circiut.. I use 24v dc pumps which dont draw much.. I also use 4500w elements which are plenty for boiling 12 -13 gallons or less and I can run one 4500w element at the same time as my 2000w 240v rims and I still draw well under 30 a with my control panel and a pump or two running at the same time... I have an amp meter in my panel and 28amps is about as High as Ive seen it go. when running all that stuff and my electric stir stick motor at the same time.

when an element says its 5500w that means its 5500w max... truth be told it could be anywhere between 4500w and 5500w... my one 4500w element only draws 4090w or so max. another draws 4470 so go figure...

I also agree the rims rocket is silly expensive and not widely use by brewers for this reason..
 
I'll give you a slightly different POV... assuming you have 50 A service, and money ain't a thang, the RIMS rocket is a nice option. I would go 240 for balancing and max power potential. It is a very low density coil and will still be able to rapidly do step mashes and mashouts if you want. HERMS definitely reduces elements and electric complexity, but raises the equipment complexity and is very slow compared to RIMS.
 
I'll give you a slightly different POV... assuming you have 50 A service, and money ain't a thang, the RIMS rocket is a nice option. I would go 240 for balancing and max power potential. It is a very low density coil and will still be able to rapidly do step mashes and mashouts if you want. HERMS definitely reduces elements and electric complexity, but raises the equipment complexity and is very slow compared to RIMS.

Ok Ill bite and try not to be biased because I really want to be fair and know...
What makes is the rims rocket an attractive option over a diy option like for example the very very low watt density 36" long cartridge heater based rims that I made for about $100 with all the quick disconnects and such for easy disassembly?
I have 2000w and with that I can step mash very quickly and it heats so gently that there is ZERO buildup in the rims or on the element after brewing..

Does it do something better than your average rims besides possible looking more attractive? does it have any special features or functions? it looks like it can be used as a hop rocket as well so that could be a plus..

From what I have read of them, if the rocket has any malfunctions its going to be more difficult to repair because blichmann loves to make everything proprietary so they can charge more for replacement parts or addons. I know you stated if money want an option so even without that you still have to wait for specific parts from blichmann to fix it right? what if you drop it? looks like the lip and seal could be problems down the road. Or would you buy extra components like many do with ssrs or even elements on more cost effective standard/universal components based setups.. The rims rocket is designed to be used with the blichman controller which is where the real money is spent.

I should not have generalized and stated the rocket is silly expensive but when you weight what it is and what it does I simply do not understand why its sold for so much money and what practical reason one would have to pay it money or not... the rocket itself isnt too unreasonable but the whole package with controller comes out to be a lot of extra dough... for what? I guess I should be looking at it like a gold watch vs a timex...

I am just having difficulty with $800+ for a home brewing rims setup..
 
Fish on!!

I dig your setup, especially the RIMS, and generally agree with your ideas doggy. But, not everyone is a DIY'er. And developing your own ****, while fun, is rarely economically worthwhile. You may have spent $100 for your parts, but what about your time? I guarantee you spent more than a few hours sourcing/building/testing/changing, and if you earn a respectable living, I guarantee it cost you more than opening a box, plugging it in, and having it work right off the bat for another ~$150. Controller is a separate discussion - the OP didn't commit one.

Look, I see NO value in an HLT and feel deep in my bones the best rig is a 2 vessel option, but expecting everyone to work out the headaches of this route is not practical, so 3 makes sense and I don't argue it for that reason.

Also, while getting technical... 2k watts ain't much for 10 gallons (not sure if OP is making 10 or has 10 gal vessels). 3.5 kW is a bunch more (1.5kW more - did the math for ya!)... again time is worth $$, but that's my opinion.
 
If you are set on buying the RIMS Rocket I would only get the 240v one if:
1. You have the circuit and outlets - you do
2. If the price isn't a whole lot different - i don't know
3. If you will only be using it on this controller (see my later comments).

Otherwise the 120v one will be fine. It may be a little slower because you can't pump wort through it quite as fast (hotter element = faster temp rising during mash out), but I doubt you will notice this much. You would need a different 120v outlet (L5-15) on the controller.

Yes, you can run a 240V element / outlet at 120v by adding a toggle switch and relay to your new panel to swap wires going to the outlet itself (swap one of the 240V hots for a neutral). I don't know the wattage specs for the two RIMS Rocket models, but if you run the 240v one at 120v you may be better off with the 120v one. Be aware that you will only be getting 25% of the wattage out of the element (5500w @ 240v = 1375w @ 120v). You might be better off with a higher wattage 120v element then a 240v element running at 120v (again, hotter, higher wattage element = faster heat rising during mash out, steps etc.). Switching back and forth will also affect your PID as it will be firing the element based on it thinking it is still a 240v vs 120v circuit. You may have to generate another learn cycle.

Even with the wattage drawbacks of running a 240v element at 120v, I do this on my HLT. I toggle it back to 120v to keep my HLT water warm during the sparge, so I can start to run my boil kettle (240v) as wort is pumped into it. I have a 30 amp circuit and have 5500w boil and HLT elements so I can't run them both at 240v at the same time (I could if they were 4400w elements). My RIMs circuit is 120V. But with the ability to change voltage on my HLT, I can run the HLT at 120v while running the boil at 240v and/or the RIMS at 120v and the HLT at 240v to quickly heat the sparge water.

I see you have 3 - PIDs. Why do you want one on your boil kettle? I know a lot of people do this, but I went with a voltage regulator speed controller / governor. It gives me instant control and I don't have to mess with changing temp or intensity with the PID buttons. Turning a knob is a lot faster to control the hot break, similar to how easy it is to turn a flame down. I still plug the temp sensor into my HLT PID for reference, and can use the HLT PID for boil control if I want (I plug it into the HLT outlet instead of the boil control outlet). I have used it to get temp close to boil, but then I end up switching to the governor with the knob at about 60% so I can fine tune it easier.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-220v-950...686009?hash=item4d149365f9:g:ED0AAOxyFrNRqhN3

Good luck!


If you are interested in building a RIMS it isn't really that tough. You may only be able to get LWD not ULWD 120v elements at higher wattages, but I haven't found this to be a problem with scorching etc. My RIMS has a LWD 120V - 1650w element and works pretty well off a 120v PID. Since it is 120v I can also use it with a portable PID controller I put in an ammo box to use when I am propane brewing outside. I have YouTubes of both:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u424rZDGb4s[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAs5w4wGPs[/ame]
 
Fish on!!

I dig your setup, especially the RIMS, and generally agree with your ideas doggy. But, not everyone is a DIY'er. And developing your own ****, while fun, is rarely economically worthwhile. You may have spent $100 for your parts, but what about your time? I guarantee you spent more than a few hours sourcing/building/testing/changing, and if you earn a respectable living, I guarantee it cost you more than opening a box, plugging it in, and having it work right off the bat for another ~$150. Controller is a separate discussion - the OP didn't commit one.

Look, I see NO value in an HLT and feel deep in my bones the best rig is a 2 vessel option, but expecting everyone to work out the headaches of this route is not practical, so 3 makes sense and I don't argue it for that reason.

Also, while getting technical... 2k watts ain't much for 10 gallons (not sure if OP is making 10 or has 10 gal vessels). 3.5 kW is a bunch more (1.5kW more - did the math for ya!)... again time is worth $$, but that's my opinion.
The thing is many people like myself have posted links to where to buy everything and assemble with a wrench and telfon tape... a rims is not a controller... it does not require any real skillset to assemble. if one is smart enough and willing enoughto brew ones own beer they can assemble a rims.... Even more of an argument can be made for the $150 triclover rims setups which practically go together without any tools at all..

And yeah I mentioned the controller because I believe the OP was considering the whole package ...I have no reason to think otherwise at this point since most people who consider blichman for this stuff do? OP what are your considerations?

So do you know if there there anything else it can do better. even compared to an asthetically pleasing 18" rims tube with a nice sight glass in the middle and a long 240v element the rocket is still pretty steep coming in at $70 more without any camlock or tc fittings

I usually brew 11.5 gallons at a time and 2000w is more than enough... I can step mash and bring the mash up about 2 degrees a minute with my setup in its current configuration..even the 1000w rims I made in the beginning held the mash temps just fine. Yes I did a lot of tinkering with my rims but it was because I found it fun... I had no idea it would be so much fun until I was forced to do it because I could not afford a premade one at the time and Im glad that had forced me past the intimidation phase for building my own since its been as rewarding as the brewing aspect for me.
That aside Id say about 95% or the people using rims here dont have the rocket and most manage just fine with their rims doing exactly what it should... I was wondering if there was any tangible indication that it did something superior that might make it a better value...people say all sort of things about denaturing enzmes and such but if it was really an issue more people would have the problem dont you think?
I know it will resell at a higher value to the right person and that is a plus, and it can be used as a hop rocket for people who might have a use for that. But what else.
and at what additional cost, has anyone had to replace the seals on theirs yet or has anyone dropped and dented the edge? these are all things to consider dont you think? If the rocket really is better and the rims had drawbacks, than a lot of people likely would have gone from a rims to one right? So anyone reading this do so? what are your findings?

and a 240v 5500w element ran at 120v is what 1375w? or 1600w? (cant remember) is it also ULWD at that point even if it wasnt at 240v...many people use that setup with great results on 5 and 10 gallon setups... for maintaining you dont need much at all. its still going to be faster than most herms setups.

BTW Brundog , thanks I admire your setup as well.. I'm really not trying to argue just to argue im trying to spark constructive conversation to understand thinks better and so others likr the op can learn more about what they might want to do. I am trying to understand more about products like the rocket why its so expensive and why some people think its better or worth that and also why some people think a regular rims has so many drawbacks.. for example I didnt know it could double as a hopback or whatever they are called. When I see someone post a problem with a rims its usually because they are doing something incorrectly or something is wrong with the configuration...
 
Thank you all for the thoughtful comments. This gives me a lot to think about. Admittedly, nearly all of the technical information is above my head... I.E. I don't even know how to program a PID, therefore I'm not sure what my best options for boil control are. I'll obviously learn as I go, but I'm trying to to make expensive mistakes along the way.

I have 240v/30amp service from one breaker. Ideally, with RIMS, I would be holding the HLT at temp (170F), while I recirc and hold temp on the mash. I guess this could be accomplished more simply with HERMS, but I'm always confused as to how the the sparge water stays at temp when the element is constantly being fired to keep the mash at temp. Am I correct in assuming that once mash out is complete, just before sparge, MLT and HLT are at thermal EQ?

Subsequently, I would also like to start the Boil Kettle element as I am finishing sparge. Obviously, the HLT element would not be firing at full power, and the Boil Kettle would; maybe this is ok. However, the formulas are not in my repertoire.

Based on these comments, it seems running 240v RIMS at partial power on this system is better than using a smaller 120v option. With RIMS Rocket, the difference in price is $5. After all this, it does make me seriously think I should consider HERMS. I will do mostly single-infusion, though I may want to do some step mash/decoction. Seems with HERMS a step mash may turn into a ramp. I know I'm babbling on here.

I was originally leaning to Blichmann as the RIMS setup isn't that much more expensive. I like the large canister, it has a nice element, and can double as a hopback (which may come into use). To my knowledge, it can be controlled like any other element, and does not necessarily need BE's proprietary controller. I could be confused though.

Thanks again!!
Michael
 
Thank you all for the thoughtful comments. This gives me a lot to think about. Admittedly, nearly all of the technical information is above my head... I.E. I don't even know how to program a PID, therefore I'm not sure what my best options for boil control are. I'll obviously learn as I go, but I'm trying to to make expensive mistakes along the way.

I have 240v/30amp service from one breaker. Ideally, with RIMS, I would be holding the HLT at temp (170F), while I recirc and hold temp on the mash. I guess this could be accomplished more simply with HERMS, but I'm always confused as to how the the sparge water stays at temp when the element is constantly being fired to keep the mash at temp. Am I correct in assuming that once mash out is complete, just before sparge, MLT and HLT are at thermal EQ?

Subsequently, I would also like to start the Boil Kettle element as I am finishing sparge. Obviously, the HLT element would not be firing at full power, and the Boil Kettle would; maybe this is ok. However, the formulas are not in my repertoire.

Based on these comments, it seems running 240v RIMS at partial power on this system is better than using a smaller 120v option. With RIMS Rocket, the difference in price is $5. After all this, it does make me seriously think I should consider HERMS. I will do mostly single-infusion, though I may want to do some step mash/decoction. Seems with HERMS a step mash may turn into a ramp. I know I'm babbling on here.

I was originally leaning to Blichmann as the RIMS setup isn't that much more expensive. I like the large canister, it has a nice element, and can double as a hopback (which may come into use). To my knowledge, it can be controlled like any other element, and does not necessarily need BE's proprietary controller. I could be confused though.

Thanks again!!
Michael

Please if you dont mind, explain a little better how a $270 rims rocket is only $5 more than a even a 1/2" 100ft stainless $100-150 herms coil with fittings I am likely missing something here...dont forget with herms you are using the temp control of your HLT so its also cheaper from that angle..

good points,
With herms you do have to wait to heat your sparge water untill after your done recirculating your mash which does slow things down if your in the camp where you still believe sparging with 170 degree water will make a difference than say 154 degree water (so far everyone who has done a comparison like this has found no difference in outcome but it could depend on process)

I do like to run my rims and heat my sparge water at the same time (creature of habit because that how I always did it) I went with 4500w and a 2000w element to do this on one 30a line. A 50a line can give you more options but there are a lot more guys out there that sprung extra for 50a and found they never use more than 30 and for me it was a lot more work and money to run 70ft of 6 awg wires. plus with my hot tub and salt water reef tank it wasnt wise on my 100amp main service to the house.
 
I run a 240v/5500w element @120v and it works quite well for 10 gallon batches. I'm not sure running at 240v is useful in a RIMS. If i recirculate at a rate where my element can't keep up I'll end up with a stuck mash anyway.
 
Please if you dont mind, explain a little better how a $270 rims rocket is only $5 more than a even a 1/2" 100ft stainless $100-150 herms coil with fittings I am likely missing something here...dont forget with herms you are using the temp control of your HLT so its also cheaper from that angle..

Maybe my statement was confusingly written. $5 is the discrepancy btw the 120v and 240v RIMS rockets. $264 vs. $269

With herms you do have to wait to heat your sparge water untill after your done recirculating your mash which does slow things down if your in the camp where you still believe sparging with 170 degree water will make a difference than say 154 degree water (so far everyone who has done a comparison like this has found no difference in outcome but it could depend on process)

This is news to me. Thanks for cluing me in. I am just reading the Brülosphy and Mad Fermentationist articles on this. Interesting!

I do like to run my rims and heat my sparge water at the same time (creature of habit because that how I always did it) I went with 4500w and a 2000w element to do this on one 30a line. A 50a line can give you more options but there are a lot more guys out there that sprung extra for 50a and found they never use more than 30 and for me it was a lot more work and money to run 70ft of 6 awg wires. plus with my hot tub and salt water reef tank it wasnt wise on my 100amp main service to the house.

This is where I get pretty confused. I wish I had more knowledge on the math here, but I guess I'll just have to try something out and see. I really want to make every attempt to get it right the first time though. Was leaning mostly to RIMS because of the better control for step-mashing (which I won't often do), mash out (which many don't do), and separate control from sparge water (which may not be necessary based on the above). Are you running your RIMS PID at 120v?
 
Maybe my statement was confusingly written. $5 is the discrepancy btw the 120v and 240v RIMS rockets. $264 vs. $269



This is news to me. Thanks for cluing me in. I am just reading the Brülosphy and Mad Fermentationist articles on this. Interesting!



This is where I get pretty confused. I wish I had more knowledge on the math here, but I guess I'll just have to try something out and see. I really want to make every attempt to get it right the first time though. Was leaning mostly to RIMS because of the better control for step-mashing (which I won't often do), mash out (which many don't do), and separate control from sparge water (which may not be necessary based on the above). Are you running your RIMS PID at 120v?
I run my 2000w rims at 240v since it draws less amps that way (plus since its a 240v element it would only put out 500w of heat with 120v) my 4500w 240v elements draw about 17-18 amps each and my 2000w one draws just under 8 amps... together one 4500w and one rims with powering my control panel and 2 of my dc pumps I draw about 26-27amps... in reality though these things are not all on at 100% at the same time so this draw is momentary.

thanks for clarifying the $5 thing, yeah I wasnt understanding it right..

as for sparging... with a recirculating system I just basically rinse my grains at the end with the sparge water as I fill my boil kettle to the top off point... I usually do this with 170 degree water myself just ourt of habit but I and others have questioned needing this. some have experimented and found no difference.
 
On your power questions, if you are not using a rheostat your element is always at full power as far as your breaker hardware is concerned.
Like I said before, you will only be able to run one at a time on that 30A service unless you use smaller elements like augidoggy.

This is another advantage to the HERMS as you only need to run one element at any one time; you also only really need one controller and one pump.
Let me explain for a typical batch sparge. If your HLT is large enough put all your water into the HLT and heat it to strike temp, this take 15-20 minutes.
Transfer proper amount to mash tun and mash in. Set PID a few degrees higher than your target mash temp and start circulating, it will take some time for them to get to equilibrium and this time will depend on your system and what temp you started at. In my system starting with 175F in the HLT works the best, yours may be different. The last 10 minutes of the mash, heat the HLT to mash-out temp if you wish. Your mash temp will rise slightly but will lag behind that of the HLT. Transfer first runnings to the boil kettle. Shutdown HLT and move controller over to the BK and turn it on to boil. Transfer HLT water to mash tun, then circulate for 5-10 minutes. Transfer full volume to boil kettle.

Everything that you can do with a RIMS you can do with a HERMS (just better).
Temperature control will be slower with the HERMS (unless you circulate your HLT water); you use this as your advantage when mashing out or doing step mashes.
If you want a hot mash-out crank the HLT to 170+ the last 10 minutes of circulation, mash temp will rise slightly but not at the same rate.
Step mash can be accomplished just as easy, strike water just starts out much lower temp.
 
Correct, if you use 4500w instead of 5500w elements it takes about 10 minutes longer to reach a boil but then the element is still powerful enough where I scale it back to 80% when boiling 12 gallons or so. In mr edges process above you lose that 10 minutes anyway compared to what I do by heating the mt first runnings to 170 in the MT instead of the BK.

I heat my water to strike... turn a ballvalve and turn on my HLT pump and fil up my MT... then mashin. It then turn the valve again and divert to rims recirculating at my desired mash temp while at the same time I turn up my hlt to 170 . when the hour is up I turn another 3 way valve which diverts my wort to the boil kettle which I then turn on and start heating my boil... I turn another valve which divert the hlt water to my sparge arm and then turn on the hlt pump at the same time my rims pump is still pumping from the bottom of my mt through my rims and into my BK this accomplishes a couple things... I dont leave any useful wort in my plumbing and my sparge water is all set to go at the end of the hour.

when my BK is full I just turn a drain valve at the bottom of my rims and pump some left over HLT water through to flush it clean. (I have a sight glass in the middle of my rims to see whats going on it there which is useful because my herms coil got really nasty inside)

I do not see where the herms can do everything better than a rims though.... for one its not going to be able to step mash as quickly at all. and it required enough water in your HLT to cover the coil at all times... Like I said, I had a herm and then a rims and wont go back.

when I built my rims I used 1" stainless pipe and a 1" camlock on one end which allows me to pull the whole element in seconds and clean the rims which a straight carboy brush although it stays pretty clean inside including the element.

honestly I could install a 5500w element in my BK since I dont use my rims at the same time as my BK but there has been no reason too, the 4500w is more than enough and the slightly lower watt density can only help.
 
I am with the others on the benefits of a RIMS over HERMS. Using a RIMS is much more precise. You set the temp, set your flow at a reasonable amount below your heating threshold and your PID takes care of the rest. The only advantage I could see to HERMs is the possible, wort carmelization or scorching (I haven't seen this)

For my RIMS I used 1 1/4" SS pipes and a 1650w/120V LWD element. I can remove the reducing bushing at the end to clean it out, but usually just run hot water through it at the end of a use cycle.

I run my HLT and Boil Kettle on 240V, both with 5500w/240v elements. I also have a 30 amp circuit and don't run both kettles at the same time (although with the boil kettle at <60% and the HLT PID cycling, I could). I easily run a pump, the controller and both the RIMS (120v) and either the HLT or Boil Kettle (240V) simultaneously for 10 gallon batches.
 
I am with the others on the benefits of a RIMS over HERMS. Using a RIMS is much more precise. You set the temp, set your flow at a reasonable amount below your heating threshold and your PID takes care of the rest. The only advantage I could see to HERMs is the possible, wort carmelization or scorching (I haven't seen this)

For my RIMS I used 1 1/4" SS pipes and a 1650w/120V LWD element. I can remove the reducing bushing at the end to clean it out, but usually just run hot water through it at the end of a use cycle.

I run my HLT and Boil Kettle on 240V, both with 5500w/240v elements. I also have a 30 amp circuit and don't run both kettles at the same time (although with the boil kettle at <60% and the HLT PID cycling, I could). I easily run a pump, the controller and both the RIMS (120v) and either the HLT or Boil Kettle (240V) simultaneously for 10 gallon batches.

This is very concise and helpful.

I was originally considering 5500w ULWD elements in both the boil kettle and HLT. Based on this thread, I was thinking of dialing back the Boil element to 4500, but I think I may stick to the original plan. Do you find that you don't need to cycle the HLT during sparge and are able to fire the boil element? I was thinking there might be a good way to use the RIMS element for this, but that would require the temp probe to be on the out of the RIMS tube... and that doesn't work.

Also, are you happy with the size of your RIMS element, or do you think it would be better to run a 240v element at 120. Being an electric boob, the math on current and system balance are still a bit of an enigma to me.

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
For my RIMS I used 1 1/4" SS pipes and a 1650w/120V LWD element. I can remove the reducing bushing at the end to clean it out, but usually just run hot water through it at the end of a use cycle.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again.... You need to be able to take the RIMS element out to clean the accumulated stuff off of it. Between the folds too. I tried the soap and water flush. It doesn't work. By the 3rd or 4th brew, enough crap coats the element to start burning. If you plan on using corn, oats, rice, it is even more important to clean after each session.
 
I have said it before, and I'll say it again.... You need to be able to take the RIMS element out to clean the accumulated stuff off of it. Between the folds too. I tried the soap and water flush. It doesn't work. By the 3rd or 4th brew, enough crap coats the element to start burning. If you plan on using corn, oats, rice, it is even more important to clean after each session.

Once I remove the bushing ring (it goes from 1 1/4: to 1/2" for my quick connects), I am able to run a bottle brush up and down the inside and in between the folds of the element. It is amazing what will come out. You do need to do this periodically or you will have a buildup. Although an occasional accidental dry fire burns off the stuff too :(.
 
I have said it before, and I'll say it again.... You need to be able to take the RIMS element out to clean the accumulated stuff off of it. Between the folds too. I tried the soap and water flush. It doesn't work. By the 3rd or 4th brew, enough crap coats the element to start burning. If you plan on using corn, oats, rice, it is even more important to clean after each session.

You can keep saying it the truth is it depends on the setup. I use a single straight 36" long cartridge heater in my rims and even though I do use a 1" camlock to be able to pull the element right out to clean it I dont bother much because every time I do the element is clean. (as is my rims and sight glass mounted in the center.)
This because of the very low watt density I believe as well as the straight shot the wort takes through the narrow path between the rims and element without the folds and such.. I flush with water after every brew and every 3 or 4 I recirculate with pbw. (Ive been told soap is the last thing you want in your brewery)

I also added a flow switch to my setup a couple years ago for $10 so no more accidental dry fires here... if the flow stops so does the element power.
 
Of course a 36" rims tube is superior, but unfortunately it's probably not the norm on most rigs out there. And a sight glass rims tube is really bees knees.

I threw away and drank a batch of roasted lager and learned the hard way about what accumulates on a normally sized non 36" long RIMS element. A set of triclovers and I have had no problems since.
 
This is very concise and helpful.

I was originally considering 5500w ULWD elements in both the boil kettle and HLT. Based on this thread, I was thinking of dialing back the Boil element to 4500, but I think I may stick to the original plan. Do you find that you don't need to cycle the HLT during sparge and are able to fire the boil element? I was thinking there might be a good way to use the RIMS element for this, but that would require the temp probe to be on the out of the RIMS tube... and that doesn't work.

Also, are you happy with the size of your RIMS element, or do you think it would be better to run a 240v element at 120. Being an electric boob, the math on current and system balance are still a bit of an enigma to me.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I think your instincts are right. Stick with the 5500w. I am not sure how much difference the 4500w element would be for boiling maintenance, but it would take more time to achieve the boil. It could be a little while for a 10 gallon batch (it could be as simple as it taking 20% longer since it is 20% smaller).

If I was dialing one back I would do the HLT because you don't usually need it that hot. One advantage would be that you should be able to run both at the same time, but as I said if you toggled one 5500w element back, to say 60% you can probably run both too, achieving the same result. I am not sure it would be recommended because you could still easily overload the circuit not having an exact handle on the draw. You could monitor this if your controller had an amp meter. I have experimented with running them both at a full and have tripped my 30a breaker (which is what I was trying to do in the experiment).

If you are using the RIMS you would still only be able to run two devices at once on a 30a circuit. If you get a larger 5500 w 240v element for your rims you would only be getting 1375w running it at 120v. You get 25% of the output of 240v at 120v. I can't remember why this is, but I believe it has to do with the efficiency and amp draw of the item. Given this you would be better off with a higher wattage 120v element than a higher wattage 240v element run at 120v.

You can run your sparge through the RIMS and use it to monitor and raise the temp if necessary. I have done this as a way to clean it but found this to be a hassle because of the extra tubage, get sparge water volume measurements right and trying to get everything drained out of it into the mash tun. Some of this depends on gravity and how your brew stand is set up. My RIMS is usually on the same level as the HLT so gravity doesn't help me much.

My 1650 - 120V ULW RIMS element works fine for me. Through use, I know how far to open the ball valve to keep up with the element and not overtax it (about 1/4).

I am not sure what you mean by "require the temp probe to be on the out of the RIMS...and that doesn't work". That's exactly where you want it, to measure the temp of the wort you are sending back to the tun.
 
If you double the voltage into a resistive device, the current doubles too. Power is the product of volts and amps. So double those two and power goes up 4x.

By the way I love your "sparge through the RIMS comment! I do this and it's awesome. 2 vessels only needed.
 
I think your instincts are right. Stick with the 5500w. I am not sure how much difference the 4500w element would be for boiling maintenance, but it would take more time to achieve the boil. It could be a little while for a 10 gallon batch (it could be as simple as it taking 20% longer since it is 20% smaller).

If I was dialing one back I would do the HLT because you don't usually need it that hot. One advantage would be that you should be able to run both at the same time, but as I said if you toggled one 5500w element back, to say 60% you can probably run both too, achieving the same result. I am not sure it would be recommended because you could still easily overload the circuit not having an exact handle on the draw. You could monitor this if your controller had an amp meter. I have experimented with running them both at a full and have tripped my 30a breaker (which is what I was trying to do in the experiment).

If you are using the RIMS you would still only be able to run two devices at once on a 30a circuit. If you get a larger 5500 w 240v element for your rims you would only be getting 1375w running it at 120v. You get 25% of the output of 240v at 120v. I can't remember why this is, but I believe it has to do with the efficiency and amp draw of the item. Given this you would be better off with a higher wattage 120v element than a higher wattage 240v element run at 120v.

You can run your sparge through the RIMS and use it to monitor and raise the temp if necessary. I have done this as a way to clean it but found this to be a hassle because of the extra tubage, get sparge water volume measurements right and trying to get everything drained out of it into the mash tun. Some of this depends on gravity and how your brew stand is set up. My RIMS is usually on the same level as the HLT so gravity doesn't help me much.

My 1650 - 120V ULW RIMS element works fine for me. Through use, I know how far to open the ball valve to keep up with the element and not overtax it (about 1/4).

I am not sure what you mean by "require the temp probe to be on the out of the RIMS...and that doesn't work". That's exactly where you want it, to measure the temp of the wort you are sending back to the tun.

the math was done on another thread and the time difference is about 10 minutes between 4500 and 5500w... running an element at 240v = less amp draw off of that 30a line... if your determined to run the rims at 120v off of the same 30a 240v circuit your going to be limited more.

you could always make your own rims like I did or even just use a stainless cartridge heater like I did... They come in many diameters and lengths as well as watt values... You can also get fancy and use a regular 240v element and install a pwm circuit inline with the temp controller to limit its voltage draw and power.

This is just my opinion of course but the smaller DC pumps are a plus here too since they draw hardly any power and can easily be controlled with pwm if needed... I run mine at full bore and through the rims I get about 1.8 gallons per minute average on my inline flow meter. It more efficient vs using an overkill pump just to choke it back wasting all that power in the process. and well at $18 a piece you can hard plumb multiple ones right in like I did and never have to move hoses around again.

really though the 18" long 240 elements should be close to ulwd on thier own...

I also agree you want the temp probe at the outlet end in the direct path of the wort just as it passes the end of the element.
 
If you double the voltage into a resistive device, the current doubles too. Power is the product of volts and amps. So double those two and power goes up 4x.

By the way I love your "sparge through the RIMS comment! I do this and it's awesome. 2 vessels only needed.

I have though about controlling the sparge temp with my rims since it also goes through it on the way to the sparge arm in my setup and it would really work perfect with just the turn of a 3 way valve. But for me I decided need the hlt because I have to treat or use an RO water mix for certain styles since while our tap water here is great for stouts its not so great for pilsners. I also have no running water in the bedroom I brew in so...
 
I have though about controlling the sparge temp with my rims since it also goes through it on the way to the sparge arm in my setup and it would really work perfect with just the turn of a 3 way valve. But for me I decided need the hlt because I have to treat or use an RO water mix for certain styles since while our tap water here is great for stouts its not so great for pilsners. I also have no running water in the bedroom I brew in so...

Thing is, depending on your water temp (in your case probably warm), you need lots of power to heat on the fly for sparge. With my water ambient (75+ always in FL), and 1.1 quart/min flow rate, I run a 5500W element at about 65% duty cycle to reach 170 degrees. As we know sparge temp is not critical, but I do try to keep it at 170 because of the mashout before it, and the mash temp is then ~170. BTW I use duty cycle (PWM) for this rather than PID - the PID is just not needed and tuning such a fast reacting loop is tricky, especially with BCS which doesn't have any auto-tuning.

I would prefer an iRIMS or a cartridge design like yours, but I have not been able to find (didn't look that hard I suppose) an off the shelf, ~5kW cartridge heater. If you find one, I would probably switch to it!
 
Thing is, depending on your water temp (in your case probably warm), you need lots of power to heat on the fly for sparge. With my water ambient (75+ always in FL), and 1.1 quart/min flow rate, I run a 5500W element at about 65% duty cycle to reach 170 degrees. As we know sparge temp is not critical, but I do try to keep it at 170 because of the mashout before it, and the mash temp is then ~170. BTW I use duty cycle (PWM) for this rather than PID - the PID is just not needed and tuning such a fast reacting loop is tricky, especially with BCS which doesn't have any auto-tuning.

I would prefer an iRIMS or a cartridge design like yours, but I have not been able to find (didn't look that hard I suppose) an off the shelf, ~5kW cartridge heater. If you find one, I would probably switch to it!
here is a nice 3000w one already mounted in a 1/2 npt threaded base..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Watlow-L18A...570468?hash=item5d64a62c64:g:0kIAAOSwRjNXNf0D
. I know its not 5500w but you could always run one from each end.. this 4000w one is promising... http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPI-HR62253...740041?hash=item2edd0751c9:g:G5cAAOSwmrlUy9xj

there are a few 4500w options on ebay too.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...RS0&_nkw=cartridge+heater+240v+4500w&_sacat=0
 
I have though about controlling the sparge temp with my rims since it also goes through it on the way to the sparge arm in my setup and it would really work perfect with just the turn of a 3 way valve. But for me I decided need the hlt because I have to treat or use an RO water mix for certain styles since while our tap water here is great for stouts its not so great for pilsners. I also have no running water in the bedroom I brew in so...

Can you post a pic of your RIMS, I would like to see how the sight glass works.

I have used the DC pumps but I find they clog easily. I end up using my Chugger.

I really need some 3 way valves.
 
Thanks. I looked at the Watlows... I thought about doubling up, but going larger diameter probably makes more sense... I like the 3/4" x 24" model. Mounted in a 1" tri-clamp tube would be sweet, but need to get the fluid in and out, so would need to contemplate that some more. Also could just do plain ol' stainless threaded tube...
 
Dont laugh but I just came across this 4000w gold plated element and due to its long length and lower wattage I think it would make a great rims element.... through a sight glass in the middle of this rims setup and youve got enough bling to send blichmann packing lol! you might start a new trend here.. of course we would have to find an more expe... I mean reputable source for it first of course.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-AO-A-O-...916837?hash=item51eff142a5:g:Tn0AAOSw44BYOyfZ


.I am kidding around guys :) but it really would make a nice choice for a rims. You can call it goldshlager beer if the gold plating flakes!
 
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