Water Adjustment Help

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stever1000

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I am playing around with the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet and Bru'N Water... because I found out my water is very low in minerals.

When I set them up exactly the same, there are some slight discrepancies which I think is due to the rounding in Bru'N water (only 1 digit after decimal in Bru'N water, so 0.168 ppm of Mg becomes 0.2)

I don't mind this fact, but the outcome is what is different. For the same grain bill, same acid and mineral additions I get different ion concentrations in my mash water profile

The two big differences are calcium (122 vs 98ppm) and Chloride (171 vs 130ppm) for Bru'N water and EZ calculator, respectively. Does anyone know why this is happening?
See below for screenshots

water%20profile.png
 
I don't know why there are differences- could it be water volumes? I can't really see the spreadsheet very well, but I will say that you have too much of sulfate and chloride (boost one or the other, if you feel you need to) and then acid malt and baking soda. Acid malt and baking soda work against each other- so don't use both. Use the one you need, probably acid malt but it's hard to say with the additions you have there.

I'd remove everything, and start over.
 
The difference comes from the form of calcium chloride assumed in the calculation. To avoid overdosing your water with calcium and chloride, the free version of Bru'n Water uses the anhydrous form of that salt. The other program probably assumes the dihydrate form.

The anhydrous assumption is safer since informal studies show that this salt is often sold with a hydration state that is between the anhydrous and dihydrate forms. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water allows you to select the form of this salt in your calculations.
 
I don't know why there are differences- could it be water volumes? I can't really see the spreadsheet very well, but I will say that you have too much of sulfate and chloride (boost one or the other, if you feel you need to) and then acid malt and baking soda. Acid malt and baking soda work against each other- so don't use both. Use the one you need, probably acid malt but it's hard to say with the additions you have there.

I'd remove everything, and start over.

I started with acid malt to lower the pH

Then added the gypsum and cal. chloride to get the ions into the range recommended by Palmer at the bottom:

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm)

50 - 150 10 - 30 0 - 150 0 - 250 50 - 350

And finally I added epsom salt to get the magnesium into the recommended range.

EZ water calc has this output at the bottom for the ratio of chloride/sulphate, so I further adjusted the three minerals to get into the "balanced" range...

Below .77, May enhance bitterness
.77 to 1.3 = Balanced
Above 1.3 may enhance maltiness
 
I will get another screenshot, but can anyone help me with these minerals? I can't seem to get a "balance" without adding a combination of all three :confused:
 
What kind of "balance" are you looking for?


John Palmer recommends these ranges for the minerals:

Calcium 50 - 150
Magnesium 10 - 30
Sodium 0 - 150
Chloride 0 - 250
Sulfate 50 - 350
Chloride / Sulfate .77 to 1.3


The balance I'm trying to acheive is a chloride/sulfate ratio of .77 to 1.3, which Palmer indicates as balanced.

With no additions, I have <5ppm for all of the above minerals, and a really high chloride/sulfate ratio (2.60/1.12 or
2.32) which would really enhance the maltiness.

I tried again and I can add 4grams of CaCl2 and 5grams of MgSO4 (Epsom salt) to balance the chloride/sulfate ratio to 1.01 which is within the recommended range mentioned above.

If I don't add both calcium chloride and epsom salt, then it's either "too bitter" or "too malty" according to the ratio.

If I add gypsum instead of epsom salt, then I have no Magnesium ions in my water.

I understand I have a lot more to read :)
 
Well, first forget that you ever heard the term "sulfate to chloride ratio", as that's not really a valid way to think of it. I know Palmer had that in the original version of how to brew, but I don't think he thinks of it that way anymore. I haven't read the updated version, and don't know what new insight he provides about it. Think of it this way- 2 ppm of sulfate to 1 ppm of chloride is a 2:1 ratio, but it's insignicant. 300 ppm of sulfate to 150 ppm of chloride is also 2:1, but would make a nearly undrinkable beer.

Just like when you're cooking, if you add too much salt adding more pepper won't help, the same is true of sulfate and chloride. Think of them as "seasoning" (as indeed, they are added for flavor) and not in terms of a ratio. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109

The thing to be aware of us that sulfate enhances dryness, while chloride enhances a "fullness" of flavor. In beers where you boost the sulfate, you want to keep the chloride low, to avoid a "minerally" flavor to the finished beer. You don't need to add magnesium unless you want to bring out a bit of sourness to the flavor.

I''m on my way out the door at the moment, so hopefully someone else will help finish these thoughts, but if not I'll check back in later!
 
Well, first forget that you ever heard the term "sulfate to chloride ratio", as that's not really a valid way to think of it. I know Palmer had that in the original version of how to brew, but I don't think he thinks of it that way anymore. I haven't read the updated version, and don't know what new insight he provides about it. Think of it this way- 2 ppm of sulfate to 1 ppm of chloride is a 2:1 ratio, but it's insignicant. 300 ppm of sulfate to 150 ppm of chloride is also 2:1, but would make a nearly undrinkable beer.

That makes sense now, I will forget I ever read anything about the ratio :mug:


Just like when you're cooking, if you add too much salt adding more pepper won't help, the same is true of sulfate and chloride. Think of them as "seasoning" (as indeed, they are added for flavor) and not in terms of a ratio. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109

The thing to be aware of us that sulfate enhances dryness, while chloride enhances a "fullness" of flavor. In beers where you boost the sulfate, you want to keep the chloride low, to avoid a "minerally" flavor to the finished beer. You don't need to add magnesium unless you want to bring out a bit of sourness to the flavor.

That link helped a lot, thank you! I will keep this in mind and keep the minerals adjusted based on the style.

I think asking for this book for Christmas is a good idea
http://www.brewerspublications.com/books/water-a-comprehensive-guide-for-brewers/

:mug:
 
I've had the same problems when I started. There are so many different mash calculators and they all give a different result. I prefer the one on brewersfriend. Is it correct? I have no idea, but I never had any issues using it.
In the end you just have to pick one follow the recommendations, and if it works for you it's obviously the best calculator you can use.
 
I prefer the one on brewersfriend. Is it correct? I have no idea, but I never had any issues using it.

I agree. I have used their advanced water calculator to estimate mash pH and mineral additions for dozens of batches. It dramatically improved my brewing. I find BrunWater to be more fiddly and harder to visualize, but I'm sure it's great as it has many fans.

Frankly, whether the calculators are absolutely physically correct or not, the most important thing to me is this: Water adjustment is a means to an end for 99% of us. So if we can use a tool many times, make empirical observations, and land on some repeatable results that allow us to brew more reliably, then they work in practical terms. The tool could tell you that adding 1g of CaCl will produce a pH of 17, which would be wildly wrong. But if you taste that and like it, then by golly, the tool will help you get there every time.

That's my take on it. I certainly have learned a good amount about water, so I am not using the calculator like a blind fool. But in practical terms, I stand by my statements that as long as one can combine empiricism with repeatability, they do a splendid job at helping us make good beer.
 
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