'Middle' Boil Times For Hops?

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MrHersbrucker

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I'm relatively new to brewing, but learning gradually. My question is about the 'middle' times when adding hops. I know that:
60 to 45 mins is mostly for bittering
5 to 0 mins is mostly for aroma
But what about the times in between?

Is there an ideal time for 'flavoring' a beer?

What happens to the flavor (not bitterness) going from 10 minutes to 30 minutes, does it get more diluted or stronger at certain times? Would 15 minutes have more flavor than 30 minutes, or should the quantity be split and added at both times?

Also, I've noticed IPAs can have plenty of hop additions (of the same hop), even every five minutes, some it adds a 'fuller' or more 'complex' flavor. But lagers usually only have 1 to 3 hop additions, shouldn't they follow the same schedule, but with smaller quantities?

Just looking for some general flavor/boil time info, any you can provide me with will help.
 
It depends on the type of beer. Hop flavor is different from malt flavor.

About 15 minutes is probably the cut off for hop flavor. Anything else adds more bitterness, not necessarily hop flavor. Multi additions are more likely to keep the IBU in check. I personally find multi additions can add a bit of complexity when balanced with malt.
 
It depends on the type of beer. Hop flavor is different from malt flavor.

About 15 minutes is probably the cut off for hop flavor. Anything else adds more bitterness, not necessarily hop flavor. Multi additions are more likely to keep the IBU in check. I personally find multi additions can add a bit of complexity when balanced with malt.

This. If I want the hop flavor I add anywhere from 15 to 5 minutes. Any more than that and the flavor begins to fall off in favor of bittering.
 
It depends on the type of beer. Hop flavor is different from malt flavor.

About 15 minutes is probably the cut off for hop flavor. Anything else adds more bitterness, not necessarily hop flavor. Multi additions are more likely to keep the IBU in check. I personally find multi additions can add a bit of complexity when balanced with malt.

Can you describe the complexity?

Would you say it's only suitable for heavily hopped beers, like IPAs, and not for lighter beers, like lagers?
 
Can you describe the complexity?

Would you say it's only suitable for heavily hopped beers, like IPAs, and not for lighter beers, like lagers?

The complexity would be like adding a subtle hop flavor. At say 20 minutes you may get just enough of the hop flavor you want. But an addition at 10 minutes makes that aspect too pronounced. You then combine it with a different variety at 0-5 minutes which brings a little something different.

You can definitely do it for a lager. It just depends on style and what you want.
 
I only add hops at the beginning or end of the boil, or whirlpool or dry hops. Nothing in between the 15-60 minute marks in the boil. Hops are added for two reasons, bittering and flavor/aroma. I say flavor/aroma because the two are really almost the same.... with the exception of bitterness, the hop flavors that you sense are actually from aromas coming back up from your throat into the back of your nose. So anyway, I find you get plenty of flavor from hops added at 0-2 minutes or during cooldown ("whirlpool"), and you even get a lot of flavor from dry hops as well.

It seems to me that anyone adding hops at the 20, 30, 40, 50 minute marks during the boil are either having a hard time deciding whether they would rather have bittering or flavor, or else they love to spend oodles of money on hops. Otherwise it makes zero sense to me -- either use them for bittering or for flavor/aroma. Anything in between just seems very indecisive and imprecise to me. Do one or the other or both, take your pick, but not in between.
 
I seem to recall seeing a chart on hbt that showed peak flavor at 15 minutes and peak aroma at 7 minutes.
 
I buy the cheaper hops with the high IBUs for my bittering, and then spend the money on the particular aroma and flavor hops used during that last 15 minutes and whirlpool period.

Why spend twice as much money on hops that you add at the 40 minute interval for bittering, when you can add a smaller dose at the 60 minute and get the same level of bitterness?
I never understood that 60 minute IPA where they add pellets very minute or two. I think they just want to make it sound complex and harder to do, to create an aura of mystique and uniqueness.
 
You pretty much have it down if you say 60 minutes: bittering, 15 minutes: flavor, < 5 minutes: aroma. You can get aroma at 15 and flavor at 0 as well though. Basically the times change based on the character and IBUs you want from the beer. If you want a juicy IPA or just lots of flavor/aroma without mega IBUs, then most or all of it can go in at the end. If you're brewing a delicate lager or blonde ale with just a touch of hops then you can stick to 60 and 15 minutes to get enough IBUs and a touch of hop character to boot. My default is 60, 10, & 0, but sometimes its 60 only (hefe), 60 + 15 (Kolsch), or 60+<5 (IPA). I never bother with hopping every few minutes or >20 additions.
 
Wow. That sounds like total baloney. But if it's based on real science, I'd keep an open mind.

I was wrong...20 minutes for peak flavor not 15. Good point about the science. I am not up for tracking down the science of it, but if you google images of "hop utilization chart" one of the first to come up has big green, blue, red lines and the tags flavor, aroma, bitterness.
 
This post right here for the win! Says "qualitative" and "not based on actual data" which reflects my assertion perfectly:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3534678

I'm pretty sure it's just a qualitative graph. But even so, I'm not sure why they centered the peak for the aroma where they did. It should be at 0. It should be more like this (disclaimer this is for illustration purposes and is not based on actual data.):

hops47.jpg

The 20-minute thing is a fabrication based on one or two people's opinions, not real data. Flavor is subjective and cannot be measured quantitatively by science, at least not without sampling like 1000 people and providing a nominal mean with standard deviation, etc.
 
I only add hops at the beginning or end of the boil, or whirlpool or dry hops. Nothing in between the 15-60 minute marks in the boil. Hops are added for two reasons, bittering and flavor/aroma. I say flavor/aroma because the two are really almost the same.... with the exception of bitterness, the hop flavors that you sense are actually from aromas coming back up from your throat into the back of your nose. So anyway, I find you get plenty of flavor from hops added at 0-2 minutes or during cooldown ("whirlpool"), and you even get a lot of flavor from dry hops as well.

It seems to me that anyone adding hops at the 20, 30, 40, 50 minute marks during the boil are either having a hard time deciding whether they would rather have bittering or flavor, or else they love to spend oodles of money on hops. Otherwise it makes zero sense to me -- either use them for bittering or for flavor/aroma. Anything in between just seems very indecisive and imprecise to me. Do one or the other or both, take your pick, but not in between.

The thing is you do get some flavor from hops in the middle of the boil. Middle additions shouldn't necessarily replace finishing hops. It is just another tool that can be used.

An example: Instead of using all the bittering hop at 60 minutes, maybe you want a bit of that flavor. So you split the addition and add some at both 60 & 20 minutes, which also keeps the IBU in range. Then you use a different hop for aroma to compliment the other flavor that you brought in.

It certainly isn't necessary for a majority of recipes, but does add some depth to the right one.
 
I have frequently used 30 min for a 1 oz bittering addition and it has worked out well. It's more of a complement to heavy late hop additions though. It all just depends, I've had different results with different hops. I made a saison Wednesday and had some 2014 hops as bonus on an order.. motueka nelson and huell melon 2 oz each so used that at 15. Then 4 oz mandarina at flameout. Have to wait see how it turns out but that flameout addition will be most prominent I think.
 
Flavor additions can be all over the board. Typically a flavor addition would be in the last 10 to 15 minutes but hops don't always play by the rules real well. I made a cream ale for a friend who doesn't like bitter beers or beers with hop flavors. I used Cascade hops for bittering since that was what I had on hand and boiled them for the 60 minutes to get the bittering without the flavor but I still got some grapefruit taste to the beer which surprised me.
 
I don't think I've seen a discussion yet of how flavor and aroma are the same thing.

I think you have to add so many noble hops to bitter that some flavor will come through. But probably not much aroma really.

I do 60, 20-30, and 0-5. Sometimes dry hop.
 
The whole dang thing is a spectrum. The idea that you only get aroma from late additions or only get flavor from moderate additions or only get bitterness from early additions is only a half-truth. In truth you get all three for all additions. There is no magic time for flavor either. You get flavor from all additions.
 
True, but in general terms its not a bad approach. I wouldn't want try dumping 4 oz of Mosaic in at 40 and expecting huge aroma instead of an IBU bomb.
 
Thanks guys, got a lot of great info from this. The conclusions I can now make are:

Good flavoring times can be anywhere from 10-20 minutes, depending on target flavor and personal experiences. Flavors/aromas/bitterness are all added to some extent at any time, though.

Additions between 60 and 25 minutes are bit more uncommon, but can release some nice 'blending' of bitterness and flavor.

And that late additions at quick intervals (15,10,5,0 minutes) help blend aroma and flavor a bit more.

As always, a lot of different techniques and ingredients yield different outcomes, and everything is to personal preference, even the same thing can seem different to different people, so best to just try many things and see what you like best.

Cheers
 
As always, a lot of different techniques and ingredients yield different outcomes, and everything is to personal preference, even the same thing can seem different to different people, so best to just try many things and see what you like best.

Cheers

And that's the great thing about home brewing. If YOU are making it, YOU are drinking it, and YOU like it, who is anyone to say that you are doing it wrong?
 
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