80 gallon batch help

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Beerum

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I have two 80 gallon pop syrup containers with standard corney keg connections. They are from a torn down Restaurant. I can't think of anything better to do with them than to make a lot of beer. Im thinking that I will make a mash tun out of food grade plastic barrels and use the heating elements and controls from a water heater. Any advice on the large scale mash tun?
 
you know having a 80 gallon keg might be worth something to a lot of businesses. A brew pub with a signature beer could put 2 barrel in it. I could make there life easier. Just a thought!
 
Chelis I like where you are going. Maybe I could work a deal to donate the two kegs and have beer for life at the local micro brewery.
 
Do you have a link to one of these containers?

You won't be able to direct heat in the mash tun unless you are planning on a HUGE BIAG setup. You'll have to have a separate HLT and BK (or combine the HLT and BK and go no sparge).
 
For 80 gallons. I'm going to need at least 100 gallons of mash tun space. The plan is two 55gal plastic barrels. One will mash and lauder, the other will boil and chill. From the boil barrel I'll pump through a chiller into the 80 gallon corney keg.

Both barrels will have hot water heating elements at the bottom and a recirculation pump. I'll have to do the process twice to get 80 gallons of wort. I'll also have to empty the spent grain from the mash to start another batch.
 
Here is a link to a picture of the stainless steel kegs. They have the same two corny keg connections and a small cleaning port at the top. Also a 1 inch valve is on the bottom.


(Scroll down to the middle of the page)

http://markproffitt.com/2011/02/15/secret-to-why-mcdonalds-coke-tastes-best/
 
Thanks for the spec sheet! I didn't have that.

To keep the wort from scorching, i'm going to have the re-circulation wort pumped at the heating elements. There will be a screen and spacers holding the grains off of the heating elements. 4 inches of space or so should do it. The pump will have to be running whenever the heating elements are on.

I could put a thermister on the element directly and bang-bang control a FET on the heating element. You have me worried. Now I will need to do a thermal flow analysis on the area of the heating element and calculate the flow of wort over each element. Maybe the wort needs to pump into a perforated pipe that encases the heating element?
 
Look around in the forum the screen and spacer would be similar to BIAB systems, while an external pipe with a heating element would be a RIMS system.

My question about the heating source was capacity. You'll most likely need a low density element that are generally available at 5500w 240v. (2) elements would take ~30minutes to raise 40 gallons of water from 50°F to boil and an hour to raise 40 gal from 60°F to 150°F! Take a look at this sheet. http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.xls
 
Great point JD. I've got a 50A extension cord that runs the welder off of a dryer outlet. I'll wire the heating elements to that. It may take [3] 5500W elements.
 
3x5500W elements at 240V will draw 69 amps and require a 85 amp minimum breaker. You're looking at running several 40/50 amp breakers with separate wiring (controls can be the same but the different circuits need isolating.)

Normally this much power would be ran commercially through a 3 phase system.

Remember that you NEED a GFCI.

It's been awhile since I've seen any of the systems but you may want to look at some of the steam infusion ideas to go this big.
 
Oh man Jason, you are harshing my buzz. (thanks for that spreadsheet by the way, these are those calcs:) I've got three 3500W elements. Three of them add up to 10500W which will do the following to 40 gal of water:

Gallons Watts Starting Temperature Fahrenheit Efficiency Time to Boil in Minutes Time to Temp H:MM
40 10500 100 95% 66 1h 6m

The extension cord I have is #8 wire which de-rated to 80% is 40A (over all temperatures, I'm running it at coldish ambients). 10500W and 240V the current is 43A. The National Electric Code is affronted but as long as I am not wiring it permanently in front of an inspector it should be OK.
 
Just trying to point out issues now before you spend time and money! No problem, I didn't make it it just has the math I wanted.

What breaker size are you running off of? A typical dryer breaker is only 30A. This is normally matched to the in wall wiring, so you shouldn't change a 30a breaker with a higher amp one without inspecting the wiring as well.

You NEED a GFCI. An easy way to do this is a spa panel in line, or a cleaner solution is replacing the breaker.

How are you thinking about doing controls?
 
I've got a 50A breaker at home, but this is going to be done at my brother-in-law's shop. We will have to throw a 50A breaker in his panel and wire in a dryer receptacle. He has a part time meat cutting business as a side job. His walk in cooler and stainless steel everything will be nice for cleanup and storage of the big ass Corney keg.

Which brings up another dilemma, I was planning to ferment in the Corney Keg. I need to set up some sort of airlock on the clean-out port. It is the same size and shape as a normal Corney keg port. Have you seen a widget on this site that does this? I suppose I could fab something out of a lid.
 
Again make sure you get a GFCI so a small wiring mistake doesn't kill you.

For this large of a batch I would use a blow off tube and then switch to a spunding valve. When you say port do you mean the quick disconnect or the "lid" port? Either one should be adaptable to adding a blow off. DIY spunding valve thread is here http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=309

This is rated for 60psig continuous operation so you can use it as a brite tank to carbonate as well :)
 
Jason, Thanks for the links. It turns out the brother-in-law has a hot tub with a 50A GFI installed. We will let that sucker cool for a while and make some beer instead. I'll just wire a 50A dryer receptacle off of that breaker.

So the plan is:
o two 55 gallon plastic barrels
o 3 heater elements 3350W each wired to 50A GFI and switch
o 1 re-circulation pump flowing wort over the heater elements and dumping on top of the mash
o 1 ball valve to control re-circulation mix
o a stand pipe to allow overflow on top of mash to not overflow the barrel and cause a sticky mess
o a couple of stainless steel mesh plates for above and below the mash. Below will be suspended on stainless spacers.

operation:
o thermometer and egg timer with highly motivated 20 something nephews manning them
o I will pump from the mash tun to the empty barrel and sparge and pump.
o I either have to reproduce the pump and heater elements to boil in the second barrel or use motivated nephews to empty spent grains and siphon back into the original (cleaned out) mash tun. Since I only have one 50A plug, I'll probably do the second option. If I had two, I could start the second mash to get the 80 gallons total.
o Use a reverse recirculating chiler to drop the wort temp and pump it into the big Corney Keg
o Set the big Corney Keg up to allow blow off and ferment in them.
o Since I have two big kegs, one will be in the heated shop, and one will be in the cooler (I know, such lavishness with the equipment)

My in-laws are a bunch of pussies and like Coors lite. When I bring good beer to the get togethers, there are half empty IPA bottles laying around. I could hop this beer up a bunch and have a lots of beer that only I will like. But, in the spirit of glasnost, I will shoot for something like an Alaskan Amber.

Thanks,

Tim
 
I did a quick Trip to Lowes last night. There are no 3350W electric heater elements. the closest I found was 4500. I had two 3350W, so that makes the total wattage 11200 and the total current 46.7A. That is cutting it pretty close on a 50A breaker. I'll probably end up buying my brother in-law a 60A GFI.
 
My in-laws are a bunch of pussies and like Coors lite. When I bring good beer to the get togethers, there are half empty IPA bottles laying around. I could hop this beer up a bunch and have a lots of beer that only I will like. But, in the spirit of glasnost, I will shoot for something like an Alaskan Amber.


LOL, this is going to be glorious!
 
er..... might want to check YOUR state laws before posting anything more on your "future possible but unlikely plans"

in MY state I am restricted to brewing 200 gallons PER YEAR. Kinda hard to justify an 80 gallon setup for personal use.
 
Ha William, You are assuming my real name is Beerum. :rockin:

We may have to make beer at multiple houses. Its a pretty large extended family. All I will need is a dryer plug and a garden hose.

Washington State s pretty lax. I think it is a federal law on the 200 Gallon limit per household containing two overage adults co-inhabiting. There are no details on sexual relations or the definition of IS.

They even let you move homebrew in WA:
Wash. Rev. Code §66.12.010
Nothing in this title, other than RCW 66.28.140, applies to wine or beer manufactured in any home for private consumption, and not for sale.
Wash. Rev. Code §66.28.140
(1) An adult member of a household may remove family beer or wine from the home subject to the following conditions:
(a) The quantity removed by a producer is limited to a quantity not exceeding twenty gallons;
(b) Family beer or wine is not removed for sale; and
(c) Family beer or wine is removed from the home for private use, including use at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings, or judging.

(2) As used in this section, "family beer or wine" means beer or wine manufactured in the home for private consumption, and not for sale.
 
Ha William, You are assuming my real name is Beerum. :rockin:

We may have to make beer at multiple houses. Its a pretty large extended family. All I will need is a dryer plug and a garden hose.

Washington State s pretty lax. I think it is a federal law on the 200 Gallon limit per household containing two overage adults co-inhabiting. There are no details on sexual relations or the definition of IS.

They even let you move homebrew in WA:
Wash. Rev. Code §66.12.010
Nothing in this title, other than RCW 66.28.140, applies to wine or beer manufactured in any home for private consumption, and not for sale.
Wash. Rev. Code §66.28.140
(1) An adult member of a household may remove family beer or wine from the home subject to the following conditions:
(a) The quantity removed by a producer is limited to a quantity not exceeding twenty gallons;
(b) Family beer or wine is not removed for sale; and
(c) Family beer or wine is removed from the home for private use, including use at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings, or judging.

(2) As used in this section, "family beer or wine" means beer or wine manufactured in the home for private consumption, and not for sale.


Glad to see you've looked up and understand the rules. Many police officers just make up rules in the field. All it takes is one nosy neighbor peeking out their window and dropping a dime because they don't like the brew day party you've scheduled. I'd like to see pictures when you get it set up for your first batch.
 
A little reminder that you don't want to use `regular water heater elements`
for your wort. They can scorch it.
You want "ultra low watt density" ones.
A forum sponsor of homebrewtalk sells them.
Carry on.
 
Thanks Paps. I have the lowest wattage ultra low density ones i could get from Lowes. I also have a 2gal/min flow of wort over the elements in a 1.5 inch pipe manifold. It is a 3gal/min pump with a ball valve diverting about a gallon/min on top of the mash. I'm heading out now to the sheet metal shop to get some perforated stainless for the top and bottom screens. Wish me luck.
 
Glad to see you've looked up and understand the rules. Many police officers just make up rules in the field. All it takes is one nosy neighbor peeking out their window and dropping a dime because they don't like the brew day party you've scheduled. I'd like to see pictures when you get it set up for your first batch.

(neighbors complaining? You must know my in-laws)
 
You could pump hot wort straight to the tanks and put CO2 pressure on them and do no-chill. Chilling 80 gallons of wort would consume a ridiculous amount of water I think.
 
Make sure you're not heating the wort (locally at the element) above target, or at least 168F or you are likely to have efficientcy issues
 
Jd, I've got the 3 heating elements in 1.5 inch aluminum tubing. Is there a way to calculate the flow needed to keep the temp below 168? 2gal per min is the current plan.
 
I've never heard of a no chill process. Can you send a link? I'm guessing that you hit it with CO2 and let it cool overnight and pitch the yeast the next morning.?
 
Jd, I've got the 3 heating elements in 1.5 inch aluminum tubing. Is there a way to calculate the flow needed to keep the temp below 168? 2gal per min is the current plan.

Yea there is, in traveling for work so it may be a minute before I can do the math for you. I'd assume that the info is in some if the other biab recirculation systems.
 
Progress over the weekend... We got the 80Gallon tanks out of storage. My Brother In-law is cleaning them and letting them sit with a mild bleach solution. One will go in the heated shop, and one in the 37F cooler. I finished the reverse flow wort chiller. It is 20' of 3/8ths Cu tubing with a 1/2 inch garden hose through two PVC tees over the top of the copper. We live in Washington where water is cheap and cold. I will throttle the flow and crank up the garden hose so that one cycle through the chiller will get to 90F from boiling.

I was looking at putting the heating elements through the bottom of the barrels. That will require 4 barrel pipe fittings. I had 2 of them floating around but can't find them. The other option is to put the heating elements in a water tight electrical box, attach the pump plumbing, and dump that in the hot wort. This worries me greatly but solves a couple of problems. I need to do two mashes to get to 80Gallons. I can pull the pump and heating manifold out of the barrel after sparging and pumping the barrel dry. There would be no equipment in the way of removing the spent grains. It also frees the equipment to work with any mash tun container. it just hangs over the side of the container into the wort.


There is a smell of CocaCola (R) in the tanks but nothing else. They were rinsed and dried when we first got them last year but not really heavily cleaned. I really want to get it as clean as possible. I did a batch of a lightly hopped pale ale one time after doing Rootbeer with the kids in a 5gal Corney Keg. It tasted really strong of Wintergreen.

I got a blue, food grade plastic water barrel and cut the top off. The local metal supply shop had a stainless steel screen (4ftx2ft for $40 yikes). I have 3 heating elements, and am picking up a pump today. The one I'm looking at is 120VAC, 18Gal/min centrifugal type. It will be 1.5 inch Schedule 40 PVC running the re-circulation and flowing over the heating elements with a ball valve to meter the flow over the mash.

18Gal per minute seems like a lot, but the Grainfather design is a 5 Gallon mash tun and flows 1G/min re-circulation over the mash. 55 Gallons is 10 times the volume. Also, I need to flow a bunch of wort over the heating elements to keep them from scorching the wort. The plan is 5 gallons per minute over the 45 ish gallons of mash and the rest over the heating elements.

Oh, I have a buddy that grew a couple rows of cascade hops. He has about 20 gallons of the stuff. I'm not sure the recipe that we will make. I'm open to suggestions. Something like Alaskan Amber is the target. Gambrinus is the malt supplier I will use. Here is their website: http://www.gambrinusmalting.com/ . They have a local warehouse where they stock most of their products.



With work commitments and what is left to finish hardware wise, the Brew date is looking like Nov 5 or 6.
 
I'll get some pics tonight.

Any suggestions scaling the beer recipe up to 40 Gallons(x2)?
Any favorite all grain recipe that comes out like an Alaskan Amber or Nut brown ale?
 

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